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A No Knock Warrant Death

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by chipperi, Jan 26, 2008.

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  1. chipperi

    chipperi Member

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    No Knock warrant costs a cop his life over small amount of weed. If you storm into a home unidentified after hours do you seriously not expect to get shot?


    source page
     
  2. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Eventually, the cops (or more accurately, their superiours) will wise up. There's a lot more armed citizens than there are police officers in this country, and if they continue to do no-knock entries, more police will continue to die.


    I hope this gentleman has all charges dropped against him. If it comes to a trial, he stands a decent chance of winning, especially with the attempted break-in that occurred a few days before the incident.


    edit; on the flip side, however, had I been in said situation, I'd have waited for the door to burst open, so I could at least identify my target visually before taking a shot.
     
  3. bensdad

    bensdad Member

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    Horrible situation for all involved. He'll be judged by 12. They will get more information than we will.
     
  4. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    But they'll be allowed to use *less* of that information during their deliberations, technically. All they would be allowed to judge upon (in order to determine intent) is what the man knew when he pulled the trigger, nothing afterwards. That's why I think he might be exonerated; He was not privy to the fact that the guy outside his door was a police officer. However, he also did not know for a fact whether the man was armed, or what his intentions were. This is where castle doctrine law usually kicks in, with the legal assumption that someone uninvited who is attempting to break into your house *is* trying to do you physical harm.
     
  5. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    He who acts like a home invader gets shot like one. The guy deserves a medal for protecting his children, not a jail sentence because the intruder turned out to be a 'good guy.'

    Trouble with the ends justifying the means is the people in the middle can't tell who is playing what. What a pity.

    Selena
     
  6. Just Jim

    Just Jim Member

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    I am afraid that if someone comes to my house un anounced and begins to break down my door that I too will go to jail.

    Sad for the officer and his family and a poor decision for the powers to be that gets good men like this killed. Why didn't they wait till he left home to arrest him and use the search warrant then??? To assualt a home where people are armed when you can easily catch them outside the home doesn't make any sense.

    jj
     
  7. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Yet another unintended consequence of the war on drugs.

    Nobody's life, cop or citizen, is worth ending over a bag of pot.
     
  8. mgregg85

    mgregg85 Member

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    It seems that under the castle doctrine, if you heard someone trying to break into your house you would have the right to shoot them.

    It also seems that an assailant could knock down your door and yell "police!" pretty easily, if you have no way of knowing whether or not the guy charging you yelling "police!" is actually a cop, would you shoot?

    Wasn't there a case recently where a guy shot a cop that stormed his house mistakenly? I seem to recall that the cops went into this guy's house by mistake and he shot one of them thinking they were intruders.

    I really can't blame this guy for shooting but I imagine its tearing him up inside and he's gotta be afraid of the jail time.
     
  9. DENALI

    DENALI member

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    :banghead: I think there gonna hang this guy. Police officers are extra-special people, and extra special people have extra special rights, at least the government see's it that way.....:barf:
     
  10. average_shooter

    average_shooter Member

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    Off topic, I know, but I feel compelled to mention L.E.A.P.

    Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

    You don't have to be current or former LEO to join, either. They welcome concerned citizens to join as well.
     
  11. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    I'm not commenting on Mr. Frederick's actions or the actions of the officers serving the warrant. I am, however, pointing out circumstances that could have led up to the confrontation.

    #1.

    Mr. Frederick was in possession of marijuana according to the police report to the press. Taking that assertion as a fact at face value:

    Where did Mr. Frederick get the marijuana? (Hint, not from a law-abiding citizen.)

    Given the fact that he would necessarily have had a business relationship with people we would all agree were willing to break the law for profit (regardless of the morality or constitutionality of that law), would it be a reasonable assumption that those people would have "sold Mr. Frederick down the river"? In other words, if they caught the dealer that Mr. Frederick obtained his marijuana from and pressured him for names, could he have given them Mr. Frederick's name rather than someone higher up his chain of supply?

    The reason I bring this up is to point out that Mr. Frederick's circumstances, while tragic, may have been brought about by his own behavior. He violated John Farnam's basic rules for the warrior: Don't go stupid places and don't hang out with stupid people.

    I hate that he finds himself in such a tragic situation. I hate that a brother officer was killed needlessly in the performance of his job. I, for one, believe that no-knock warrants have a troubling tendency to be over-used.

    I make no moral judgements on the system or the players involved, but merely observe that those who associate with known criminals and who break the law themselves are far more likely to end up in this type of encounter than those who do not. Here endeth the lesson.
     
  12. Sage of Seattle

    Sage of Seattle Member

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    And some people still think that no-knock warrants aren't easy to get and often used for trivial things?

    I now am for the enactment of strict guidelines of when ANY no-knock warrant shall be issued. Guidelines such as a minimum of let's say two independent witnesses who put some form of identification on the warrant itself, or perhaps that the person who is at the residence has at least one felony conviction on record (or even several misdemeanor violence convictions) or SOMETHING.

    Folks, I know I'm preaching to the choir on this, but what the cops are doing now AIN'T WORKING.
     
  13. Just Jim

    Just Jim Member

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    Maybe he was able to grow his own so he didn't have to deal with criminals??

    It would be nice to know all that facts before judgement is passed. It is very dangerous to break in to peoples homes unanounced though.

    jj

    Seems alot of this drug use would stop if they closed the border where most of it comes from. How many lives would it save to do the right thing??
     
  14. vis-à-vis

    vis-à-vis Member

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    From what I read right now, if I were a juror, I'd be leaning toward a not guilty vote.
     
  15. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    I feel bad for the dead guy's family. I feel bad for the guy who is now in jail for merely defending his home against unknown invaders.

    All over probably a baggie of pot, maybe some pipes, and a dieter's scale. Is the failed war on drugs really worth it? How many more people have to die and lives ruined before we call a truce?
     
  16. eliphalet

    eliphalet Member

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    Understanding why our borders are left open but "no knock warrants" are used on the populace escapes me.
     
  17. fletcher

    fletcher Member

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    You probably can't see those very well at night, and the words on their helmet would probably be the last thing to worry about if your door gets kicked down.
     
  18. DENALI

    DENALI member

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    :fire: The whole sorry episode is just another tiny chapter in Uncle Sam's ongoing essay on criminalizing one segment of society after another and then lowering them to the position of dungeon-class, and of course always expanding the para-militaries rights and privlidges to combat them in the name of protecting the middle-class they just removed them from.:uhoh: Just who is the predator? :(
     
  19. Just Jim

    Just Jim Member

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    We could slow down the drug trade alot if we closed the border. 80% of all meth comes across our southern border. No Knock warrants wouldn't be needed if the crap is not here to sell.

    jj
     
  20. Spreadfire Arms

    Spreadfire Arms Member

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    im not seeing anywhere in this story where it was a "no knock" warrant? can someone please point it out?

    the only thing i see even remotely close is:

    it doesn't appear that the aunt, who is quoted above, was there when the warrant was executed, because she later says:

    had she been there she'd have probably known what the police claim to have found.

    so, can someone show where it was a "no knock" warrant? or are we just assuming at this point?

    thans.
     
  21. tallpaul

    tallpaul Member

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    I am of the - ya better knock or call first club... I am not a criminal and ANYONE- with a hat or vest that can say pilice etc does not mean anything to me. They sell those items on ebay every day- well online anyhow... You do not come into my house un announced or uninvited by me unless ya are willing to die- PERIOD! I have had that discussion with quite a few LE and they usually get pissed off royal... they do feel they are truly special... they would be the first to arrest us if we went to a house based on a bad invite or iflormation. They also feel that if they goto the wrong house based on bad info they should not be prosecuted.... its BS I also know several "officers" that brag even with a knock warrant they only wisper...

    I hope the dude gets let off as he should. I don't think the right of protecting your home is not done away with for committing a misdemeanor is it? Heck its not even done away with if ya are a felon - maybe not with a gun but ya still have the right AND DUTY to protect your family/home- God knows LE don't save ya from home invasions and the supreme court already ruled its NOT the responsibility of the LE community to protect us as individuals...
     
  22. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    This is several weeks old which is a shame. There aren't many details coming out immediately which is suspicious. The interesting parts are the new developments. According to Radley Balko who spoke to one of the reporters...there is some information that did not make it to the news articles.
    http://www.theagitator.com/2008/01/25/more-from-cheseapeake/

    Apparently the owner was a gardener with Japanese Maples and grow lamps so these can possibly be mistaken for pot. Tomato plants have been mistaken as pot plants in the past. Young Japanese Maple leaves look somewhat like pot leaves before they turn that mature red. http://www.soulofthegarden.com/Images/April06JapaneseMapleLeavesCU.jpg



    Don't forget that no-knocks are being used a little too readily on non-violent offenses with information given by "informants" which are often less-than-reliable. You're getting the same type of highly dynamic raids on things like poker games which absolutely aren't justified. Judicious use of force is a high risk decision. Just several months earlier, a similar raid resulted in one dead single mother and a 1-year old child shot AFTER the suspect had been arrested.

    On recent scandals with drug informants, there is a big stink about a DEA informant that worked with a DEA agent in over 21 false convictions which have put innocent people away.
    http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1200994350273790.xml&coll=2

    A lot of critical mistakes are being made lately.
     
  23. Spreadfire Arms

    Spreadfire Arms Member

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    cesiumsponge,

    thanks for the information, i too agree that no-knocks are very dangerous for all parties involved. no different than other undercover drug buys where the dope dealers have no idea the buyer is an undercover cop, or vice versa.

    in relation to this particular incident did Balko or anyone else specify if this was a no-knock warrant? i dont see it anywhere.
     
  24. Spreadfire Arms

    Spreadfire Arms Member

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    ok i just found a linked news story:
    http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/all-officers-were-wearing-body-armor-during-shivers-shooting

    part of the article says:

    a neighbor said:

    looks like it wasn't a "no-knock" warrant, whether they did knock and announce then is more of the issue. did they or didn't they?
     
  25. DENALI

    DENALI member

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    :eek: Hey there eliphalet. In answer to your question, just think "Hotel **********"....:banghead:
     
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