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A question about the NICS

Discussion in 'Legal' started by jackson24, Oct 9, 2011.

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  1. jackson24

    jackson24 Member

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    I'm new here and was wondering if you guys can shed some light on an issue I experienced a few days ago. I've bought several guns before but it was in the pre brady era. No problems. I am fully qualified according to the rules of the NICS for gun purchase. I live in Texas. We have been experiencing a bunch of Home Invasions in our area and were talking about purchasing a shotgun for Home Protection. We went to Academy on Thursday Oct 6, 2011 and I picked out the shotgun I wanted and filled out the paperwork etc and was told I was on Delay. Knowing I've done nothing wrong I returned 2 days later and had my wife apply for the same gun. The FFL said her NICS app was invalid and I thought he said she would be placed on a 30 day hold if she ever tried to purchase again because they were thinking this was a straw purchase. He said your husband is on delay here and even though I believe this is not intentional the FBI looks at this in a different way. He said he would call me when my delay cleared. OOPS... I just can't believe that this would be an issue. Wouldn't a straw purchase be if I had a friend go there and try to buy the exact same gun and I was with him. I mean a married couple wanting to protect themselves ?? My wife felt as if she had no rights and thought her's were supposed to be separate from mine. I know Academy will not transfer without a Proceed from the NICS. I went Thursday. Not counting that day.. Fri, Mon Tue would be three days. Well Mon is a federal holiday. so Wednesday. Should I call the NICS and inquire what the delay is for or just wait and if so how long will I be expected to wait. The guy at Academy told me if they had not heard back in 30 day's I'm free to reapply. Reapply !!! This is ridiculous. If it does turn into 30 days should I try to find an FFL that will transfer after the 3 day no response?? I can't believe this is happening. How patriotic is this.
     
  2. bikemutt
    • Contributing Member

    bikemutt Member

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    Concerning calling NICS with respect to your delay, my advice is don't waste your time; NICS will exchange zero information over the phone other than to tell you what I just said.

    As to why the FFL treated your wife as you described, they are just doing their job, they are required to "know your customer". What you described sounds like it meets the test of someone attempting to "expedite", or get around the system.

    As far as being instructed to wait 30 days, that sounds like the FFL talking. A NICS delay that exceeds 3 business days is at the discretion of the FFL with respect to a transfer.
     
  3. BK

    BK Member

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    I'm a gun dealer. I've never heard of a 30 day length delay, only 3 days. It appears that this is their company policy to not transfer a firearm unless they have a "proceed" from NICS. They are also referring to the time limitation to a NICS check. See below. Academy doesn't have to wait for the "delay to clear", but they are obviously going to sick with their policy. A lot of times, dealers hear nothing from the NICS check (deny or proceed) which means after 3 days, they can transfer you the firearm. I have never had a customer delayed, but before I was a dealer, I was delayed once. It is almost always because there is a prohibited person in the system with a similar name. If you search around using the word "delay" in thread titles, you will find that this happens to a lot of people and more often than you might imagine. Here is a good thread to read: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=558038
    Delay info:
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  4. Thatguy686

    Thatguy686 Member

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    i work at a gun store now and used to work at gandermtn that said the guy at academy is a idiot what happens more times then not is the nics gets busy and puts people on delay as you call it but its actually a conditional nonapproval after 3 business days and most places will say 3 full business days so if it was on a monday you would have to wait till friday since tuesday wednesday and thursday are the three full days but then you can get a conditional approval and take you firearms home that day the 30day wait is if you got a nonapproval which means you will not get approved no matter where you go and you have to appeal through nics because obviously you or someone with your name or close to the same social has a bad history as far as your wife getting denied thats exactly what they are supposed to do because even tho it may not be the case it looks like you got a conditional nonapproval and since you did shes going to come back and buy it for you. besides that here in florida it is illegal for a felon which is what your concidered until the background check comes back it is illegal for a felon to have guns in there house whether theirs or not so if you have the same address it red flags both of you
     
  5. Thatguy686

    Thatguy686 Member

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    another little piece of advice if you find out you got a nonapproval and go through the appeal process make sure you get a unique personal identification number or upin so you dont have this problem in the future
     
  6. rule303

    rule303 Member

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    If your wife was buying the gun for you as a gift, it would be OK. Sounds like she is trying to buy it for you, which is illegal according to the ATF. While I don't agree with it, that's how it is. The clerk is just doing a CYA, because if he or she has any suspicion that it is a straw sale, they can be held personally responsible. They can transfer the gun to you in 3 business days, but many places won't do a transfer unless they get a "proceed" response. Not law, but many companies policy.
     
  7. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    1) In that given situation, I would have denied to sell to your wife too, as a possible straw purchase.
    2) The "three days" is after the end of 3 full business days after the NICS application was put in. At that point the dealer -may- release to you, but is under no obligation to do so. (fwiw, I will release after 3 days, but many "big box" chain stores will not)
    3) If you are just coming up "delay", but not "deny", find another shop to buy from.

    It ain't nuthin personal, it's just the law ... and it's been that way for a while.

    Also, if you purchase from an individual in your state, person to person, more than likely none of the above applies.
     
  8. Davek1977

    Davek1977 Member

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    Having someone purchase a firearm FOR you (not as a gift, but with your money) is the definition of a straw purchase. The dealer, like it or not, did the right thing in this case. While your wife's RIGHTS are seperate from yours, NO ONE has the right to break the law, no matter how silly it may be. No rights were violated in this case, and the dealer coverd his butt just like he should have. Seriously, who WOULDN'T see it as an attempt to get around the law when someone is rejected or delayed by the NCIS and then attempts to have his spouse or someone else purchase the exact same gun hours later? Don't you think the delaer may have had just a hunch that it was going to be in your possession sooner rather than later? If he has so much as an inkling that is going to happen, he is legally required to halt the sale. You claim you "KNOW" you did nothing wrong....but you sent your wife out to commit a felony on your behalf! You may not have know that, but ignorance of the law is seldom an accepted defense
     
  9. Davek1977

    Davek1977 Member

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    Having someone purchase a firearm FOR you (not as a gift, but with your money) is the definition of a straw purchase. The dealer, like it or not, did the right thing in this case. While your wife's RIGHTS are seperate from yours, NO ONE has the right to break the law, no matter how silly it may be. No rights were violated in this case, and the dealer coverd his butt just like he should have. Seriously, who WOULDN'T see it as an attempt to get around the law when someone is rejected or delayed by the NCIS and then attempts to have his spouse or someone else purchase the exact same gun hours later? Don't you think the delaer may have had just a hunch that it was going to be in your possession sooner rather than later? If he has so much as an inkling that is going to happen, he is legally required to halt the sale. You claim you "KNOW" you did nothing wrong....but you basically unknowingly sent your wife out to commit a felony on your behalf! You may not have know that, but ignorance of the law is seldom an accepted defense in a court of law.
     
  10. Thatguy686

    Thatguy686 Member

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    rule303 in any ordinary situation a gifted gun is fine but if he was put on conditional nonapproval then he cant even be gifted a gun
     
  11. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    Per BATFE endorsed firearms transfer training I've received that's absolutely correct. You were in delayed status, and you tried to circumvent the NICS by having your wife attempt to purchase the firearm. If Academy had run the NICS on your wife, and transferred the firearm to her, with knowledge of the circumstances (which you've articulated they had) then the clerk, and manager approving the transfer, along with your wife, could legally be charged with a felony under the section of US Code applicable to straw sales of firearms. Your marital status is irrelevant. Your lack of criminal history is irrelevant until you get a proceed response (or exceed the 3 business days without denial at a dealer who will transfer then). As long as you're in delayed status anyone else attempting to buy that firearm, even your wife, is circumventing the NICS on your behalf. The BATFE is very black & white on this if you read the FFL regulations.
    If you've ever worked for a retailer that does transfer after 3 days, and had the NICS call you back on the 5th day now wanting you to try to convince that person to bring the gun back you'd understand why Academy won't transfer without a proceed. If you don't get a proceed within two weeks I'd go back and ask for the NTN (NICS Transaction Number), and call the NICS at their appeals number. You have a right to know the NTN, so don't let them try to deny you that. Here's a link to the appeal info pamphlet - http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics_appeals_brochure_eng .
     
  12. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    He didn't "send" his wife on some sneaky felony mission, he went to the shop with her. Openly. You'll have a hard time proving intent.
     
  13. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    1) A "DELAY" can mean darn near anything from "you have a name similar to a prohibited person and they need to further research" to "hey, I'm eating my lunch, I'll get back to you later to "I'll get to you when I finish these first 10 guys ahead of you". And no, they (NICS) won't tell you why.

    2) I would have denied your wife too ... this is/was a classic "straw purchase" situation. Unless you want to spend the rest of your life making little rocks out of big rocks, I don't suggest you try it again.

    3) AFTER three business days have passed since the application, if there has been no reply beyond the DELAY, the FFL -may- release the gun to you. Note I say -may-, they are under no obligation to do so. NICS will "allegedly" work on the DELAY for a total of 30 days. I say "allegedly" because I have never, ever, had a DELAY turn into anything else except a DELAY.

    Because of that 30 day thing, many "big box" retailers (the one with lawyers on staff or on retainer) will not release on a DELAY. Most independent FFL's and smaller gunshops will. I will.

    Suggestions: Go to another smaller place to get your shotgun
    Buy one direct from an individual

    Don't concern yourself with the "Appeal" process ... you don't appeal a DELAY, you appeal a DENY.
     
  14. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    Basically a "straw" purchase is buying a gun to pass on (sell/give/whatever) to someone who is not legally eligible to own a gun. Your wife could buy a gun to give to you only if you are eligible to have one. If you were on "delay" that kills that deal.
     
  15. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    That was a mistake. There are legitimate processes for dealing with a delay/denial, but while you're in limbo the system doesn't see you as being qualified to purchase a firearm. Intentionally having someone purchase a firearm for you can be seen as intent to participate in a straw purchase. OTOH, since your wife and you live at the same address and the firearm is for the home, it is not unreasonable for her to make a purchase as long as the intent isn't to get around the law. Her house, her shotgun, her purchase.

    If you didn't provide your SS# there can be a delay because of confusion with someone else with same/similar name.

    If you've moved recently there can be a delay if there are multiple "current" addresses for you.

    If the request line is overloaded or there are database access problems you can get a "DELAYED" response.

    Patience is always a valuable virtue when dealing with these sorts of things.
     
  16. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    No such terminology in the FBI NICS process.....it's either PROCEED, DELAYED or DENIED.

    Incorrect.
    It's a commmon misconception, but there is no requirement for any party involved be ineligible to possess a firearm.
    ATF is VERY clear....a "straw purchase" is ANY transaction where the transferee is not the actual buyer. (there is an exemption for "gifting").
    Question 11a on the 4473 asks:
    "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person..."

    FBI NICS is never told the address of the purchaser, only "state of residence".
    In my last one thousand NICS calls I've had exactly ONE call where a recording told me NICS was temporarily unavailable. The FBI NICS has to be the single most efficient "call center" on the planet....they answer by the second ring 99% of the time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011
  17. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

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    If it were me and the shotgun was for home defence for my wife's use, I would suggest she purchase a shotgun at a local Mom & Pop gun shop. If Academy calls you back (they probably won't) I would tell them I'm no longer interested and hang up.
     
  18. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    The local Mom and Pop gun store has to operate under the same rules and laws as the big stores.
     
  19. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

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    As far as following Federal and State Laws, that's correct, but the typical LGS will complete the transaction on a 'delayed' after the 3 day wait, assuming NICS does not call back with a 'denied'. In this case Academy is going beyond the requirements of Federal law. Another good reason to go to a LGS is because the salesman at Academy likely has no knowledge of shotguns, ammunition or much of anything else. If you have a problem with your firearm purchased from the big box retailer, no one there can help you.
     
  20. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    That simply is not true. If you know the person well enough to know they have no reason to be a prohibited person, you can gift them a gun with a NICS delay pending, or even a NICS denial. NICS has absolutely nothing to do with private party firearms transactions between residents of the same state.
     
  21. jackson24

    jackson24 Member

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    I disagree. We are married and live in the same household. We will both be using the gun.
    It's both of our money on a joint account. Not Mine alone. I went with my wife 2 day's later as she wanted one also. We are going to stock pile many weapons as soon as we get cleared. Once I have one, the rest can take their time as I will have a way to protect my family. I in no way want to ever have to take someones life but I'm going to have a way to protect my family. Were not gun nuts or even go to firing ranges. My Dad is a retired Police Sgt and I guess it's just what you know from experiences that make me want to be ready.
    I did not send her to do a felony and they would no way be able to succsfully charge her with that.
     
  22. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Member

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    Disagree all you like. The FFL was right to do what he did. It's his license that is at risk if he sells the same gun to your wife that you were delayed on 2 days before. If you eventually came back denied, he could lose his license, or be convicted of a crime.
     
  23. jackson24

    jackson24 Member

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    Resolution: My wife and I were in an LGS at lunch looking at some 12GA and I got a call from Academy saying I had been preceded and I could come pick up my 12GA whenever I wanted so actually I was ranting and raven for nothing. I applied Thursday and Monday was a holiday so to be cleared on Tuesday I guess is pretty good. I'm happy happy happy !!
    Thanks for all the responses and happy hunting !!
     
  24. rule303

    rule303 Member

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    Glad to hear this one had a happy ending.
     
  25. RatDrall

    RatDrall Member

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    You were ranting and raving about your rights being denied. I don't blame you...
     
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