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a quick read of S.1237 raises the following questions

Discussion in 'Legal' started by alan, Jun 18, 2007.

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  1. alan

    alan Member

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    1. The term "appropriately suspected" appears several times. In PLAIN ENGLISH, what might this mean?

    2. Re all the power granted to A POLITICAL APPOINTEE (The Attorney General) under this proposed legislation, who died, leaving that worthy king, emperor or godhead??
     
  2. stevemis

    stevemis Member

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    I looked at it, too.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1237:

    Certainly ...

    "determines that the transferee is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism;"

    We all know "known or appropriately suspected" doesn't mean convicted or indicted. Those are easier words to use.

    Steve
     
  3. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    You're better than I am if you can read that monstrosity quickly. Parachuting disjointed words and phrases into existing legislation makes a bill extremely difficult to fully comprehend - which was probably at least partially Lautenberg's purpose for writing it that way.

    The content of S.1237 makes me wonder if Lautenberg is trying to reinstate the monarchy and recreate the Star Chamber.
     
  4. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    If somebody is a suspected terrorist, arrest them and charge them with a crime. Again we pass more laws to fix a non-issue.
     
  5. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    Unconstitutional

    This law is as unconstitutional as it gets, folks. Amendment V specifically states that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. This law would be no due process of law, and being deprived of property doesn't mean having the property you own taken away, it means lacking the essentials of life, such as adequate food, shelter, education, etc, and I'm sure the "etc" would include means of self defense, the tools necessary to build shelter, and hunt for food and the like - whether you own these things at the time or not!

    The biggest danger? Since Congress has decided it can write its own meaning of words into law, nothing will stop them from adding "speaking out against legislative actions with threats of the use of force in defiance of law" (From my cold dead hands!) to the definition of "terrorism". The more law they write, the more little doorways they open to nail us all to the wall. I don't want to be nailed to the wall when they decide they don't want me to have guns. I want my hands to be free to hold the arms I'll need to keep those in government from confiscating those very arms I may need to protect myself and family, to feed myself and family, and to deter tyranny.

    If those in our government are so worried about these "terrorists", round them up, charge them with something, and if a court of law finds them guilty, lock them up. In the mean time, don't deny me and everyone else the means to defend ourselves and the nation from the real terrorists - the terrorists that are described in the dictionary.

    Hell, if those in our government already know who these people are that they can deny them arms, explosives, and related licenses, why are they not already locked up awaiting trial? What, some terrorist is going to try and buy a gun, find out he's been denied, and continue to hang around? BULL! He'll be gone or will slide underground and never be heard from again until he finds or steals what he needs and does his dirty deed!

    Some of these people in government must think we're dumb as a box of rocks.

    Woody

    Be careful who you choose to stand behind and support. If you are unwilling to take care of yourself, you must take what comes along. I've yet to see a flock of sheep, no matter how well cared for and tended, that doesn't get fleeced from time to time and eventually end up on the dinner table. Not many sheep die a natural death. B.E. Wood
     
  6. Noxx

    Noxx Member

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    Now that is some scary orwellian s*** right there.
     
  7. alan

    alan Member

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    for the convenience of others, text of S. 1237 follows or see it at thomas.loc.gov

    Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007 (Introduced in Senate)

    S 1237 IS


    110th CONGRESS

    1st Session

    S. 1237
    To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of firearms or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses to known or suspected dangerous terrorists.


    IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

    April 26, 2007
    Mr. LAUTENBERG introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    A BILL
    To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of firearms or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses to known or suspected dangerous terrorists.


    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This Act may be cited as the `Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007'.

    SEC. 2. GRANTING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THE AUTHORITY TO DENY THE SALE, DELIVERY, OR TRANSFER OF A FIREARM OR THE ISSUANCE OF A FIREARMS OR EXPLOSIVES LICENSE OR PERMIT TO DANGEROUS TERRORISTS.

    (a) Standard for Exercising Attorney General Discretion Regarding Transferring Firearms or Issuing Firearms Permits to Dangerous Terrorists- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) by inserting after section 922 the following:

    `Sec. 922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm

    `The Attorney General may deny the transfer of a firearm under section 922(t)(1)(B)(ii) of this title if the Attorney General--

    `(1) determines that the transferee is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism; and

    `(2) has a reasonable belief that the prospective transferee may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

    `Sec. 922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3)

    `The Attorney General may determine that--

    `(1) an applicant for a firearm permit which would qualify for an exemption under section 922(t) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism; and

    `(2) the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.';

    (2) in section 921(a), by adding at the end the following:

    `(36) The term `terrorism' includes international terrorism and domestic terrorism, as those terms are defined in section 2331 of this title.

    `(37) The term `material support or resources' has the same meaning as in section 2339A of this title.

    `(38) The term `responsible person' means an individual who has the power, directly or indirectly, to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of the applicant or licensee pertaining to firearms.'; and

    (3) in the table of sections, by inserting after the item relating to section 922 the following:

    `922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm.

    `922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3).'.

    (b) Effect of Attorney General Discretionary Denial Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) on Firearms Permits- Section 922(t) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (1)(B)(ii), by inserting `or State law, or that the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' before the semicolon;

    (2) in paragraph (2), in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law';

    (3) in paragraph (3)--

    (A) in subparagraph (A)--

    (i) in clause (i)--

    (I) in subclause (I), by striking `and' at the end; and

    (II) by adding at the end the following:

    `(III) was issued after a check of the system established pursuant to paragraph (1);';

    (ii) in clause (ii), by inserting `and' after the semicolon; and

    (iii) by adding at the end the following:

    `(iii) the State issuing the permit agrees to deny the permit application if such other person is the subject of a determination by the Attorney General pursuant to section 922B of this title;';

    (4) in paragraph (4), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law'; and

    (5) in paragraph (5), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law'.

    (c) Unlawful Sale or Disposition of Firearm Based Upon Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 922(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (8), by striking `or' at the end;

    (2) in paragraph (9), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; or'; and

    (3) by adding at the end the following:

    `(10) has been the subject of a determination by the Attorney General under section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H), or 923(e) of this title.'.

    (d) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 922(g) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (8), by striking `or' at the end;

    (2) in paragraph (9), by striking the comma at the end and inserting `; or'; and

    (3) by inserting after paragraph (9) the following:

    `(10) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made under section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H) or 923(e) of this title,'.

    (e) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(d)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking `Any' and inserting `Except as provided in subparagraph (H), any';

    (2) in subparagraph (F), by striking `and' at the end;

    (3) in subparagraph (G), by striking the period and inserting `; and'; and

    (4) by adding at the end the following:

    `(H) The Attorney General may deny a license application if the Attorney General determines that the applicant (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.'.

    (f) Discretionary Revocation of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(e) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) by inserting `(1)' after `(e)';

    (2) by striking `revoke any license' and inserting the following: `revoke--

    `(A) any license';

    (3) by striking `. The Attorney General may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license' and inserting the following: `;

    `(B) the license'; and

    (4) by striking `. The Secretary's action' and inserting the following: `; or

    `(C) any license issued under this section if the Attorney General determines that the holder of such license (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

    `(2) The Attorney General's action'.

    (g) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Firearms License Denial and Revocation Suit-

    (1) IN GENERAL- Section 923(f)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the first sentence the following: `However, if the denial or revocation is pursuant to subsection (d)(1)(H) or (e)(3), any information upon which the Attorney General relied for this determination may be withheld from the petitioner, if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security.'.

    (2) SUMMARIES- Section 923(f)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the third sentence the following: `With respect to any information withheld from the aggrieved party under paragraph (1), the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

    (h) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Relief From Disabilities Lawsuits- Section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the third sentence the following: `If the person is subject to a disability under section 922(g)(10) of this title, any information which the Attorney General relied on for this determination may be withheld from the applicant if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security. In responding to the petition, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

    (i) Penalties- Section 924(k) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (2), by striking `or' at the end;

    (2) in paragraph (3), by striking the comma at the end and inserting `; or'; and

    (3) by inserting after paragraph (3) the following:

    `(4) constitutes an act of terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism,'.

    (j) Remedy for Erroneous Denial of Firearm or Firearm Permit Exemption-

    (1) IN GENERAL- Section 925A of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (A) in the section heading, by striking `Remedy for erroneous denial of firearm' and inserting `Remedies';

    (B) by striking `Any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (s) or (t) of section 922' and inserting the following:

    `(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (t) of section 922 or a firearm permit pursuant to a determination made under section 922B'; and

    (C) by adding at the end the following:

    `(b) In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A of this title or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B of this title, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition shall be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination under section 922A or 922B of this title. The court shall sustain the Attorney General's determination upon a showing by the United States by a preponderance of evidence that the Attorney General's determination satisfied the requirements of section 922A or 922B, as the case may be. To make this showing, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security. Upon request of the petitioner or the court's own motion, the court may review the full, undisclosed documents ex parte and in camera. The court shall determine whether the summaries or redacted versions, as the case may be, are fair and accurate representations of the underlying documents. The court shall not consider the full, undisclosed documents in deciding whether the Attorney General's determination satisfies the requirements of section 922A or 922B.'.

    (2) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT- The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking the item relating to section 925A and inserting the following:

    `925A. Remedies.'.

    (k) Provision of Grounds Underlying Ineligibility Determination by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System- Section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (18 U.S.C. 922 note) is amended--

    (1) in subsection (f), by inserting `or the Attorney General has made a determination regarding an applicant for a firearm permit pursuant to section 922B of title 18, United States Code,' after `is ineligible to receive a firearm';

    (2) in subsection (f), by inserting `except any information for which the Attorney General has determined that disclosure would likely compromise national security,' after `reasons to the individual,'; and

    (3) in subsection (g)--

    (A) the first sentence--

    (i) by inserting `or if the Attorney General has made a determination pursuant to section 922A or 922B of title 18, United States Code,' after `or State law,'; and

    (ii) by inserting `, except any information for which the Attorney General has determined that disclosure would likely compromise national security' before the period at the end ; and

    (B) by adding at the end the following: `Any petition for review of information withheld by the Attorney General under this subsection shall be made in accordance with section 925A of title 18, United States Code.'.

    (l) Unlawful Distribution of Explosives Based Upon Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 842(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (9), by striking the period and inserting `; or'; and

    (2) by adding at the end the following:

    `(10) has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843 of this title.'.

    (m) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 842(i) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (7), by inserting `; or' at the end; and

    (2) by inserting after paragraph (7) the following:

    `(8) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843 of this title,'.

    (n) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Explosives Licenses and Permits- Section 843(b) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) by striking `Upon' and inserting `Except as provided in paragraph (8), upon'; and

    (2) by adding at the end the following:

    `(8) The Attorney General may deny the issuance of a permit or license to an applicant if the Attorney General determines that the applicant or a responsible person or employee possessor thereof is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation of, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the person may use explosives in connection with terrorism.'.

    (o) Attorney General Discretionary Revocation of Federal Explosives Licenses and Permits- Section 843(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) by inserting `(1)' after `(d)';

    (2) by striking `if in the opinion' and inserting the following: `if--

    `(A) in the opinion'; and

    (3) by striking `. The Secretary's action' and inserting the following: `; or

    `(B) the Attorney General determines that the licensee or holder (or any responsible person or employee possessor thereof) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and that the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the person may use explosives in connection with terrorism.

    `(2) The Attorney General's action'.

    (p) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Explosives License and Permit Denial and Revocation Suits- Section 843(e) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in paragraph (1), by inserting after the first sentence the following: `However, if the denial or revocation is based upon an Attorney General determination under subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843 of this title, any information which the Attorney General relied on for this determination may be withheld from the petitioner if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security.'; and

    (2) in paragraph (2), by adding at the end the following: `In responding to any petition for review of a denial or revocation based upon an Attorney General determination under subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

    (q) Ability To Withhold Information in Communications to Employers- Section 843(h)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

    (1) in subparagraph (A), by inserting `or in section 843(b)(1) (on grounds of terrorism) of this title' after `section 842(i)'; and

    (2) in subparagraph (B)--

    (A) in the matter preceding clause (i), by inserting `or in section 843(b)(8),' after `section 842(i),'; and

    (B) in clause (ii), by inserting `, except that any information that the Attorney General relied on for a determination pursuant to section 843(b)(8) may be withheld if the Attorney General concludes that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security' after `determination'.

    (r) Conforming Amendment to Immigration and Nationality Act- Section 101(a)(43)(E)(ii) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(43)(E)(ii)) is amended by striking `or (5)' and inserting `(5), or (10)'.
     
  8. alan

    alan Member

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    woodcdi writes among other things that the propopsal (S.1237) is "unconstitutional. Be that as might be the case, the status of a law being unconstitutional is determined AFTER it's enactment and AFTER enforcement activities have taken place, and this would assume that The Judiciarry, up to and perhaps including the USSC so finds it.

    gc70 writes:

    a quick read of S.1237

    You're better than I am if you can read that monstrosity quickly. Parachuting disjointed words and phrases into existing legislation makes a bill extremely difficult to fully comprehend - which was probably at least partially Lautenberg's purpose for writing it that way.

    The content of S.1237 makes me wonder if Lautenberg is trying to reinstate the monarchy and recreate the Star Chamber.

    As to your closing observation, quite possibly, that or something perhaps worse.

    As to "you're better than Iam ....", who knows, I make no such claims, but thanks anyhow. Regarding your reference to "parachuting disjointed words and phrases into existing legislation ....", a very interesting observation, one that all to often describes what our employees, the elected things we send to Washington D.C., and state capitols seem much enamoured of. Re the "parachuting of disjointed words and phrases into existing legislation ...", have a look at H.R. 2640, recently enacted in House of Representatives. You will find such activity there too.
     
  9. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    If you are a "suspected" terrorist, then isn't being denied a firearm going to alert you to the fact you are suspected? What better way to check your own security? If you are a "known" terrorist, then why are you out and about buying firearms at FFLs - unless the FBI is trying to follow you to see what you are up to in which case see my original point.
     
  10. SoCalShooter

    SoCalShooter Member

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    That's for me to know and not you!
    If this passes we all just became terrorists?
     
  11. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    You only have to go as far as Lautenberg and guns and know it can't be good for gunowners.
     
  12. jselvy

    jselvy member

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    What is "Domestic Terrorism?"


    Jefferson
     
  13. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    What is a domestic terrorist?

    This is one states definition, Though since they published it it had been pulled. Attempts have been made to delete it. But the information is around.
     
  14. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    More Here,
    http://web.archive.org/web/20060516040123/www.homelandsecurity.alabama.gov/tap/home.htm
     
  15. jselvy

    jselvy member

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    well, I'm screwed

    Jefferson
     
  16. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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  17. rdhood

    rdhood Member

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    Well, a AG might well consider purchase of an AK-47... or several kits or any of the weapons listed in the AWB, old or proposed... "to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism".

    So if you purchased a couple of semi auto carbines of any type since NICS went into affect, the AG could declare that act as "conduct in preparation for or related to terrorism", and prevent you from ever gaining another gun via NICS approval, and they wouldn't even have to tell you why you are denied.

    That's not a stretch, either. That's how the Fort Dix bunch got caught:

    "The six -- three of them brothers -- were arrested Monday night "as two of the defendants were meeting a confidential government witness to purchase three AK-47 automatic machine guns, and four semi-automatic M-16s to be used in an attack they had been planning from at least January 2006," according to a news release from the U.S. Attorney's Office."

    So now go over to any of the AK forums and view some pics and realize that there are LOTS gun owners who have purchased a half dozen AK variants because they love the gun. Under S.1237, any of these guys could be permanently denied from ever purchasing another weapon via NICS, and they do not have to be told why they are denied, nor could they appeal it.

    The threat of this legislation is clear. Put another Janet Reno in office, and just watch as citizen after citizen lose their 2nd amendment rights.
     
  18. jselvy

    jselvy member

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    PCOSMAR,

    Your score is 70%
    Congratulations, you are a domestic terrorist. Well, at least you are according to the US government. Consider turning yourself in to your local authorities. There are FBI offices all around they country and they would like to talk to you. Pack your bags for Gitmo because the government doesn't like you.

    Thanks that just made my day

    Jefferson
     
  19. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    I am quite sure I am on some list somewhere. I am on some I know about.
    That is what concerns me, and why I hope things will change.
     
  20. alan

    alan Member

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    In my opinion, which might not be worth much, given the passage of S.1237 or ANYTHING similar, no matter whose name(s) appear on it as sponsor or supporters, re individual rights, ANY OR ALL THAT YOU CARE TO NAME, bending over and kissing your ass goodbye strikes me as the appropriate action to take.

    As for being on "lists" having had a fairly high level security clearance at one time, I suspect that Iam or have been on any number thereof. I've also never been shy about telling government that it was wrong, when I so thought. Nobody takes me seriously though, especially not yours truly.

    In conclusion, being that I'm a bit past 74, a whole lot of things that would be important if I were younger no longer are. Looking at the drift or would gallop be a better term to use, for directions that this country seems to be going in, I'm also rather glad that I never played any part at all in producing kids. I also would not be interested in being 30 again. Good luck to the young.
     
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