Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

A Rational Discussion of Political Correctness

Discussion in 'Legal' started by gc70, Jan 3, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gc70

    gc70 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,027
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Following is the summary of The Retreat of Reason: Political correctness and the corruption of public debate in modern Britain.

    ######################

    Not to neglect the article's link to firearms, here is one of the more succinct quotes about Michael Moore's gun control efforts:

     
  2. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Messages:
    4,192
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Political Correctness is just another name for tyranny with manners. :cuss:

    Nuff said...
     
  3. gc70

    gc70 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,027
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I think the article's author would describe political correctness as tyranny without manners.
     
  4. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    I have three comments about Political Correctness:

    1) I hate it for the reasons already stated in this thread.

    2) See my sig line. There's a big difference between being politically correct and being politically smart. Eschewing Political Correctness doesn't make it smart to say whatever you want whenever you want -- and most importantly -- however you want. Presentation and image do matter -- and that has nothing to do with bowing to PC-ism.

    3) Related to #2 -- the biggest victory for the PC crowd has been the backlash against PC-ism in some quarters. Some people revel in their supposedly anti-PC speech, thinking they're somehow making a strike for free speech, but they're simply being vulgar, racist and just plain low class. Their speech was unacceptable long before anyone conceived of political correctness.

    The lesson? Don't let your dislike of Political Correctness trap you into undermining your ideas with low class and juvenile verbiage.
     
  5. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    4,744
    Location:
    somewhere on Puget Sound
    And using the label of "political correctness" without understanding the meaning also does more harm than good.

    On occasion, it seems to me that it is difficult to engage in rational discussion on the topic of political correctness within the confines of this forum ... for a couple of reasons:

    -- A great many members here seemingly cannot distinguish between actual political correctness and other members' attempts to simply rise above the rampant sarcasm, use of pejorative nicknames and (as Cuchulainn notes) juvenile verbiage;

    -- The absolute rapidity and ferocity with which the label of political correctness is thrown at posters when attempting to clarify whether or not race or religion is being used as an underlying basis for a post or is in fact germane to the discussion at hand ...

    It becomes quickly apparent that there are many who thrive on examining posts only to gain an opportunity to pounce on someone for being "the p.c. police" or otherwise accuse posters of being politically correct. We have more than a few members who never put forth opinions of their own nor add comments dealing with the actual thread subjects but whose posts serve only to criticise the remarks and impugn the motives of previous posters in the thread ...

    Witness recent threads bemoaning the use of the juvenile nicknames of political figures (and the President). While many tried valiantly to make the case that the nicknames added nothing of substance to debate but only made the posters' remarks belie the name "The High Road" -- many others defended the use of the nicknames and decried the others as being "p.c."

    Witness a post not long ago, when the original poster's only description of two individuals who were arrested at a gun show was to note they were black men. I innocently asked why the poster thought it important to note race, but absolutely no other descriptives about the arrestees -- and was subsequently thrashed in no less than ten or twelve subsequent posts for being p.c. and injecting race into the thread.

    If it's not the accusations of political correctness, it's the accusations that other members are simply too "thin-skinned." While many attempt to indeed stay on The High Road, there are too many others who, as Cuchulainn accurately notes, glory in their anti-p.c. stance to the point of actually degrading the quality and content of debate in the forum.

    Frankly, it may be time for a discussion on political correctness, and here's hoping it will enlighten those who heretofore have only used the phrase as a label without understanding the true meaning of the term.
     
  6. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    Anti-Political Correctness has become a form of Political Correctness.
     
  7. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    11,055
    Location:
    Northern Indiana
    .

    And maybe political correctness is the mask we tend to hide behind to shield ourselves from criticism. After all, I'm PC, obviously you're not, so I'm morally superior and you're a buffoon.

    Perfect examples are the lefties that label Reagan and Bush as being totally stupid mental midgets because they don't have the "give the underpriviliged anything and everything" attitude (OK, at least it was true about Reagan)

    I'd agree that we've gotten to the point that we can't have some discussions without the "PC Police" screaming racism

    I made a point the other day that 82% of black children are born to unwed mothers. A woman (not even part of the conversation) replied in a very loud, almost yelling voice "well, listen to Mr Bigot" or something to that effect

    Now, these are US Government statistics, but if you discuss facts rather than politically correct opinion, you're labeled right away

    Guns are the area that have been attacked, and many of us are at the point that we're reluctant to tell people they own guns and shoot for fear of being labeled. Guns used to go up in value. This is no longer the case, I assume because there are less and less shooters. The anti's have made it difficult to own a gun (at least in some areas), difficult to find a place to shoot, and extreme liability if anything does go wrong.

    +1
     
  8. V4Vendetta

    V4Vendetta member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,055
    Location:
    NC, USA
  9. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    :) If it had been me, I'd have given a friendly smile and responded, "Madam, I understand how you might think I'm being racist. After all, there are plenty of people out there who might use that statistic in a racist manner. But I'm not. My point is blah, blah, blah."

    Often, when we think someone else is being politically correct, they're simply misunderstanding our point. I've found that most people will give you a chance to clarify.

    Yes, as Old Dog said, many people do attempt to hide from criticism by labeling others politically correct.
     
  10. longeyes

    longeyes member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    7,227
    Location:
    True West...Hotel California
    Well, we were told the meek would inherit the earth. Now we know how.

    Political correctness is just one more form of tyranny, this time of The Loser.
     
  11. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    Sometimes yes; sometimes no.

    PC campus speech codes are a form of tyranny, yes. But I'd hardly call the PC-er who objects to the term chairman (as opposed to chairperson) a tyrant. He's silly and wrong, but he's no tyrant.

    Peer pressure isn't tyranny. Criticism isn't tyranny. Objection isn't tyranny. Ad hominem attack isn't tyranny. Heckling isn't tyranny. Silly spelling and word choice (using s/he instead of he) aren't tyranny.

    I'd even venture to say that mob rule acts (like stealing newspapers) aren't tyranny. Criminal, yes. Unacceptible, yes. Tyranny, no.

    Perhaps I'm splitting hairs -- gender neutral hairs, of course.
     
  12. longeyes

    longeyes member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    7,227
    Location:
    True West...Hotel California
    Yes, you're splitting hairs--with Occam's razor no less.

    When you are stifled and silenced you are experiencing tyranny. It doesn't matter whether the pressure's coming from a guy with a big crown on his head or the local social criticism committee.

    What PC is about, really, is changing the way it is permissible to think and, more specifically, making sure that people CAN'T think because certain links in the process have been surgically removed. In the end it's all about power, and if that doesn't ring your "tyranny bell" I can't help you.
     
  13. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    and

    Furthermore -- given that most of the tactics of the PC-ers do not qualify as tyranny (see my previous post) -- don't those statements employ the same unfair tactic used by the PC crowd, using an inaccurate smear-label to discredit a dislikable idea?

    We've got to be careful not to fall into the PC-ers' habits when fighting them.
     
  14. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Messages:
    4,192
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Political Correctness is tyranny in as much as it attempts to enforce how and what one thinks.

    For example:

    Mentally challenged instead of mentally retarded...
    Challenged implies that someone with an IQ of say 40 if given proper instruction and enough time can learn - say - calculus for example. That's simply not true but the PC crowd would like everyone to believe it.

    Crewing a ship instead of manning a ship...
    OK - USN ships now have female crew but you know what man is generic for mankind. That's english pure and simple but the PC crowd not being terribly well educated doesn't understand that - or maybe they do. :banghead:

    In the first case positive spin is the action and spin is thought control.

    In the second case the PC crowd is attempting to change a culture, a language and the way people think about men and women. Men and women (oh no - I listed Men first) are not the same and no amount of PC will change that (thank the lord for the differences).

    There is most definitely a difference between anti-PC and bad manners. One is simply calling a spade a spade the other is just - well - bad manners.

    PC is tyranny with manners - the tyranny of the thought police.
     
  15. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    Sorry, it's not tyranny for the "head of the local social criticism committee" to object to your ideas and words and attempt to shame you socially.

    Peer pressure isn't tyranny.

    Look, I disagree with PC-ism. But it's simply not accurate to use the blanket label of "tyranny."
     
  16. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    Sorry, I don't consider the moron who wags his finger at me and says "You're a bad, bad man for using the term mentally retarded" to be a tyrant.

    Some political correctness is tyranny. Some isn't.

    By the way, do you consider Oleg Volk to be a tyrant because he forbids you from using certain words and from discussing certain topics on this forum (his private property)?
     
  17. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    9,056
    Location:
    SouthEast PA
    Social pressure isn't tyranny.

    When given the force of law through a majoritarian excercise, well,then, that's a bit different, although plenty of majority worshippers will vouchsafe the outcome, because "it's not tyranny if we do it to ourselves."

    Then, there's grey areas, the effect of PC policies on what are nominally private transactions of public significance, like, oh, say....college admissions.

    Messy, messy, messy.
     
  18. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
    OD, Will, excellent post. Thanks & +1.

    Nem
     
  19. gt3944

    gt3944 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    161
    Location:
    Cumming,Georgia
    I agree with a lot of what everybody is stating...down the drain with political correctness...If I had to watch whatever I said so that I wouldnt make somebody uncomfortable I would have to stich my lips shut...
     
  20. tube_ee

    tube_ee Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    476
    You know, a lot of this PC nonsense would go away if we came up with an even-gendered pronoun (nouns, too). We've got:

    he / him / man: Clearly male.

    she / her / woman: clearly female

    it / they: genderless. This is a problem, if you are trying to come up with a pronoun for mixed gender groups. An individual person has a gender, it's just that until they are identified, we don't know what it is. So refering to a person whose gender is unknown as yet as "it" won't do it. Hideous stylistic abortions such as "s/he" don't work either. How the hell would you pronounce that?

    English needs a short, pronouncable pronoun to indicate both genders at the same time.

    --Shannon

    PS: Lest I be tarred with the "PC" brush, I've been saying for years that women in America have much more important issues of equality to focus on than language. When women in positions of power and influence are no longer an oddity, then it might be time to worry about pronouns. Maybe.
     
  21. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Messages:
    4,192
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    When he holds one up to public ridicule and scorn and attempts to change your behavior as a consequence then he is being a tyrant and that is exactly how PC works.
    Apples and oranges - apples and oranges. Irrelevant and a quite disengenuous question - but then you knew that didn't you? :mad:
     
  22. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,041
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    He who defines the terms generally wins the argument.

    The most effective—and insidious—form of censorship is self-censorship.
     
  23. RealGun

    RealGun Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    7,308
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    It was not a politically correct question. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2006
  24. Malone LaVeigh

    Malone LaVeigh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,136
    Location:
    Washed out of Four-dollar Bayou. Now I'm... somewh
    You can't have a rational discussion of political correctness here. 90% think it's confined to one side of the spectrum and don't seem to notice that they're wallowing in it themselves.
     
  25. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    Um, no. Public ridicule and scorn are not tyranny. What's amusing is that in saying that, you are using the same bogus tactic as the politically correct folks.

    • They don't like what's being said, so they hold people up to public ridicule and scorn by using blanket smears like racist or sexist.
    • You don't like what they're saying, so you hold them up to public ridicule and scorn by using the blanket smear of tyrant.
    But neither they nor you are tyrants. Rather, you're both simply engaging in ad hominem arguments.

    See, folk's, that's what I'm talking about when I said Anti-Political Correctness has become a form of Political Correctness. The tactics are the same -- but in negative image.
    Really? Oleg has often been accused of being politically correct for his forum rules against discussing certain topics and using certain words. I was attempting to see where you stood on the matter. I'm still curious.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page