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A Reasonable Discussion of Stopping Power

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by SharpDog, Feb 17, 2019.

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  1. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Unfortunately they frown on bringing guns to the plant and shooting at break time is against company policy, but they do have free WiFi. And momma will let me go to work about everyday, she gets pissy if I go to the range 40 hours a week.
     
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  2. 481

    481 Member

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    Shawn is correct in what he thinks.

    This—

    9mm%20US%20M882.jpg

    seems to look very much like this—

    9-MM-115-FMJ-9-25-2012.jpg

    Dr. Fackler's illustration matches reality.

    Of course, you can discount it, but there it is.
     
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  3. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    Stopping power means nothing without shot placement of the proper bullet.
     
  4. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    So bottom line is you guys just can't really answer my question.
    Other than " looks like they're about the same" not real "quantifiable" evidence as one poster suggested it was.
    I mean we measure bullets to the thousandth and velocity to the tenth of a fps then claim oh look that holes about the same as this one everything works the same.
     
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  5. Browning

    Browning Member

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    You get days off right? Do you go to the range or have a piece of land to shoot on? Do you actually shoot the guns you talk about online there?

    Then?
     
  6. 481

    481 Member

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    If you have a scientifically valid and repeatable method for assessing 'stopping power' (which will also require that you develop an equally valid/correct unitary definition for that inadequately defined term) that'll pass peer-review, I am sure that we would all enjoy seeing it. Purely a rhetorical statement...I really don't expect that you or anyone else possesses such a thing.

    What bullets do in human bodies can never be accurately predicted due to the tremendous number of (primarily, but not limited to, anatomical) variables involved and anyone demanding so will always be disappointed by that reality; those variables introduce plenty of room for error/uncertainty. IOW, some things are simply not possible. However, physical test mediums (10% and 20% ordnance gelatin, water) and/or mathematical models (modified Poncelet equations) can, at the very least, provide an idea as to how much tissue a bullet is capable of damaging and how far it might penetrate.
     
  7. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    So if two rounds of different calibers are placed similarly on similar targets, which one has the most chance of doing the deed ?
     
  8. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart member

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    Ya gotta love all this Techno ballistico Babble. Reminds of the Turbo Encabanator. I have often wondered if a bullet traveling on a humid day suffers any Sinusoidal Depleneration on the way to the target. It has keep me awake many a night.

     
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  9. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Vasily Blokhin killed 7000 men over the space of 28 days using a briefcase full of Walther pistols, all chambered in 25ACP.

    I guess shot placement really does matter.
     
  10. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    I think increased velocity / KE matters and I have pics
    10mm 155 XTP bullet impacted deer 18 yards away with just over calculated 600# KE
    Handload 155 gr. XTP @ 1,366 / 642# KE (5 shot chrono average)
    The bullet expands to about .65 - so holes made in tissue should be .65 but they were bigger.
    Delta Deer pic1.jpg
    Delta Deer pic6.jpg
    Delta Deer pic2.jpg
    Some factor allowed a handgun bullet to make bigger holes than diameter of expanded bullet.
    Quarter is .95
     
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  11. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    This is one of my favorite articles on this subject, and I think for anyone willing to take the time it really illustrates that for self defense you really only have 2 options: a long gun or a handgun. Handgun rounds all perform very similarly, and rifles and shotguns perform a pretty significant magnitude better.

    https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
     
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  12. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Oh yeah I shoot about 5000 rounds a year that's down from my hay day in the early to mid 90s when I shot about 20k a year.
    Just pointing out I have a lot more time to argue online with random people
     
  13. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Sure I do bigger bullets make bigger holes, faster bullets make bigger holes. Faster and bigger bullet make even bigger holes.
     
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  14. macadore

    macadore Member

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    To reasonably discuss stopping power you must first define what you mean by stopping power. Too many variables to have a reasonable discussion. Is the person facing you or standing sideways? Is the person wearing a t-shirt or a leather coat? Is the person setting in a car or kicking in your door?
     
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  15. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    If you're being grappled by a bigger stronger opponent who's trying to rip your head off, and all you can guarantee is one shot (because the gun my not cycle correctly in the grapple) from waist level somewhere into their torso,...... shot placement isn't going to be a very controllable factor. But more damage is going to be a big deal. Sure, not all self defense scenarios are this way, but close up and dirty is still entirely possible.

    There's a balance for everyone based on their skills, physical stature, frequency of practice, etc. But I like the philosophy of carrying the most powerful caliber you can shoot well.
     
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  16. Keith G

    Keith G Member

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    I understand your point, but disagree with this. There is always going to be those people that believe bigger is better, regardless of what is being discussed.

    I think there is some merit to a larger bullet having more "stopping power." I bigger piece of lead will have a more dramatic effect on whatever it collides with, and a larger hole will allow blood to empty out quicker.

    That said, I still feel shot placement is king. I'd rather get hit in the arm or leg with a 44 magnum than in the heart or head with a 22. I'd rather not get hit with either, but if I had a choice...

    I also believe that if some thug breaks into your house because he wants your TV, if you start unloading your 22 on him, he's likely going to change his mind pretty quickly about how bad he wants that TV. Same with any other caliber, but you understand my point.
     
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  17. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    I understand about shot placement but what this thread was objecting to is that all handgun calibers are similarly effective.

    It's like I'm asking which model of car is faster and the answer is none are faster if they take a wrong turn. It's undeniably true but beside the point.

    I've never had to defend myself against a bear thank goodness but I have against several large wild dogs. I'm glad I had a .44 magnum and not a .32 acp.

    Just sayin'
     
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  18. Madcap_Magician

    Madcap_Magician Member

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    Yeah, but a substantial portion of all the gun forum threads I've ever read end up being merry-go-rounds regarding caliber wars or platform wars. If we didn't have that kind of stuff to argue about, I'm not sure what we'd talk about.
     
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  19. Keith G

    Keith G Member

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    I guess my answer would be yes and no. Yes, they are all similarly effective in that you can make anything take its last breath with any caliber. No because a larger caliber gives you more margin for error when doing so.

    Have we gotten anywhere? :)
     
  20. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Sure, it's the second word of the thread title. I'm just venting because I don't want to trade in all my .44 magnums (which were lost in that terrible boating accident) for .32 acp bear guns ;)
     
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  21. 481

    481 Member

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    Size is not ''stopping power'', unless that is the definition of ''stopping power'' that you wish to go with...it ignores all other elements involved in incapacitation. By that logic, you could carry around a 13-pound shot put and consider yourself to be ''well-armed''.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  22. Keith G

    Keith G Member

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    A man should have at least 1 handgun that lets him know when he’s pulled the trigger, whether he needs it or not.
     
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  23. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Stuff that mattered?
     
  24. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    If Pelosi managed to ram through a bill requiring all handguns to be single shot, what caliber would you choose?

    Conversely, if the law required at least three warning shots what caliber would you choose?

    “Stopping power” (whatever it may be) is only part of the equation of choosing a handgun. How much it factors into your personal decision is something only you can decide.
     
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  25. stillquietvoice

    stillquietvoice Member

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    Since experenting with tissue damage on humans is prohibited by law the only way to really prove tissue damage is on huntable animals or cuts of meat picked up at your local supermarket, but even so there will be anomolies like if bones were hit... Op if you want definitive answers go hunt as many pigs as you can with as many gun and cartridge combinations as you can. It may take years but you'll have your answers.
    As far as handgun and caliber effectiveness I have a limited sample of one. My first wife "hated kids and never wanted them" hired a guy to kill me and my 1 yr old, at the time, daughter. Long story short he watched me load my 6 inch gp 100 357 mag and entered my home anyway. The shot hit torso through rib cage under right arm and logded in his spine. Load was 158 gr hornandy xtp jhp @1335 mv. At 15 feet it was effective enough.
     
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