A scenario that has me thinking...

[Kleanbore]

Posted by nitetrane98: If you don't have the game to ratchet up the violence knob when necessary you should wear tennis shoes wherever you go and just run away screaming like a little girl.

Until rainbowbob pointed it out, I had somehow completely missed one little three letter word in the OP: "ran".

Our defender has indeed already yelled and run, but he hasn't been able to get away. I think that means a lot, both in terms of tactics and, if there is witness testimony or other evidence to that effect, in terms of what may happen later.

Retreat is not required in the OP's home state of Tennessee, or in a lot of other states for that matter, but that doesn't mean it isn't a very good idea anywhere, if it is possible and if one would not be abandoning a loved one.

Here are two reasons I can think of: (1) it may avoid the terrible consequences for all concerned of having had to use deadly force (it didn't work in our hypothetical scenario), and (2) evidence of having so tried could really help in a defense of justification, requirement or no. And here's one more: in a real situation, in which the aggressor may turn out to be armed or in which he may have an accomplice lurking in the shadows, it's just a darn good tactic.

Where I live, retreat is required if it is safely possible, unless one is in his or her domicile or automobile. No, it isn't written in the statute, anywhere, and you can read the code for a week and you won't find it, but it does exist among "ALL the law". The way things work, a lot of things are like that.

Again, I think the attempt to retreating the OP's hypothetical scenario is an important factor. Whether deadly force is likely to prove to have been acceptable in that strictly constructed scenario is another one of those things you won't find in statutes--you have to talk to a lawyer who is experienced in the field. Don't expect him or her to put anything in writing, and don't expect a strict yes or no answer. However , the answer will be a whole lot more valuable to you than speculation or a lay interpretation of PART of the law,

Whatever the answer, and back to S&T, I think that if you are in the situation, you are going to have to do what you have to do, and the important thing is to not do more.

By the way, in some states in which there is no duty to retreat, you will not find anything about that in the statutes--it's a matter of case law. In many others you will, and that's primarily because the legislatures were moved to overturn long-standing case law. Same thing applies to castle doctrines.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Where do I go next to acquire the good working knowledge of which you speak?

Have you attended LFI-1?

Are you carrying the business card of a good criminal defense attorney in your jurisdiction? Have you sat down and had a one on one conference with said attorney (many 'first meetings' with attorneys are not billed)?

Ever go to superior court (or whatever court in your local jurisdiction tries felony level cases) and sit through a few hours of proceedings?

Have you considered joining http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/ ?

There's so much more to "the law" than what is in the statute books that someone who is going to 'go in harm's way' needs to know...

lpl

 

[Seattleimport]

Knowing that grave bodily harm or death can easily come as the result of a fist fight, and if you do scuffle you risk the attacker procuring your weapon, would you...

A. Not be willing to take that gamble, and stop the threat via firearm?

B. Risk it and try to stop the attacker via hand-to-hand combat?

I would choose A.

Like Rainbowbob, I live in the Seattle area. He's already linked to the numerous stories of real people getting permanently maimed or killed by a single punch.

I prefer to live.

So: can't get away? Crazy person attacking me? Pull gun. Shoot if necessary.

The equation works like this: Legal complications < the value of my life.

 

[rainbowbob]

...can't get away? Crazy person attacking me? Pull gun. Shoot if necessary.

The equation works like this: Legal complications < the value of my life.

Precisely.

 

[William Lee]

a.) Yes, you can under some circumstances. Being assaulted by someone using their fists is not a "fist fight".

b.) No, it doesn't - not if I can prevent it.

c.) Yes, it might.




First...What the heck is a run of the mill street fight? If you are talking about mutual combatants going at it, then no, you don't get to introduce a firearm if you start losing.

Second...He DOES have the means to kill me at the ends of his arms and legs.

On the other hand...if you're talking about a unilateral threat to punch my lights out...I will step back...declare my peaceful intentions...command him to stay away from me...

If he initiates an assault at that point, yes, I may draw my firearm under those circumstances. If he continues to come at me threateningly - he is likely to get shot - before a single punch is thrown.



"He threatened to initiate an unprovoked attacked...I told him to stay away...I let him know I was armed...I backed up...he kept coming at me...I aimed my weapon and shouted "Stop, or I'll fire!"...he kept coming at me..."

"I was in fear for my life, as there have been far too many cases in our city recently of innocent people being killed or permanently injured by "unarmed" thugs using their fists and boots."


The only truly unarmed man is a quadriplegic or a quadruple-amputee.


By the way...In this city a man was attacked by an "unarmed" mentally ill man suddenly and without provocation. The victim was able to get to his concealed handgun and shoot the fellow. No charges were filed.

Also...Our beloved "Tuba Man" (a well-known street musician) was attacked by a gang of kids and was killed by a blow to the head.

And...A much-admired middle school teacher came to the aid of a women in distress being assaulted by a stranger at a bus stop. He reached for his phone to call 911 and was struck to the pavement, suffering permanent brain damage. He'll never teach again.

More?...A man was watering the flowers he'd planted in a street turn-around and refused to move his hose for some impatient teenage girls who wanted to get by. They called a boyfriend who punched the man in the head - once. His head hit the pavement and he died almost instantly.

Need I go on?

I won't provoke anybody, and I won't try to correct bad public behavior. I'll avoid bad situations and areas if possible. I'll talk my way out of a tight spot if possible, or just run away if necessary.

But I'm not taking a punch from anybody - for any reason.

I hear you. Having been on the receiving end of a few fisticuffs in my day, I am not in a hurry to take another trip to the hospital to close a bleeding lip or split chin. I've been assaulted 5 times in the past four years. Luckily, I was able to avoid all but two incidents by brandishing my Kershaw. However, the two times that didn't work, stuff really hit the fan. The first time I was jumped from behind by four 16 year olds while walking home from the student center ATM at Rutgers university. I wound up getting slashed in the chest with a box cutter (I was blessed that the cut was not terribly deep and required no stitches to close) before I buried my knife in the assailant's forearm and the whole group ran away. The second time I was carjacked and cocked in the head with a vodka bottle (don't let that happen to you if you can help it). Because I was seat-belted in my car I was unable to effectively draw my knife to defend myself, so I gritted it and started choking the guy until i got a timberland in his crotch, kicked him into the neighboring car, and then got out full on with the knife in hand (in the mean time, my girlfriend who was also in the car had bitten a second assailant who put his hand on her face--i love her).

Just share these stories because I got lucky both times. The vodka bottle didn't cut me when it broke, and I wasn't opened up like a zipper by the box cutter. However, a fraction of an inch in either situation could have ended my weekend pretty poorly. I hope never to get into a serious hand to hand altercation again if I can help it, which is not to say that I'm not trained in various self defense systems, just that I never believed in gambling with anything more valuable than money.

 

[c919]

Geez, William. Sounds like it's time to move.

Sorry you had such bad encounters, but nonetheless thanks for sharing. Unfortunately these things do happen all the time.