A serious question about anti-gunners

Can gun control advocates can also respect gun rights?

  • Yes, you can respect something and still want to limit it

    Votes: 18 19.6%
  • No, respecting gun rights is incompatible the a gun control agenda

    Votes: 63 68.5%
  • Something else, and I'll explain in a comment

    Votes: 11 12.0%

  • Total voters
    92
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I will be honest. I am more into gun control now than I was years ago before I shot. Since I took up pistol shooting a few years back as a serious hobby rather than a once a summer event, I have run into more mentally unstable people and training impaired people at the range than I ever new existed! I mean this seriously.

I have friends I have made over the years who carry and are not at all familiar with their weapon or shooting in general. I think these people are an outright danger. I also have friends who carry who laugh because they got away with taking the carry class with a guy who overloaded the class and only had each person shoot thirty rounds. I asked this person how much range time she has put in since then and she never went back to the range, but she carries. She has the permit but has no idea what she is doing. The thought of her out there with a gun scares me. It angers me that the instructor, under the guise of not wanting to deprive anyone of the rights to carry any longer than possible, beefed up what should have been a class of 12 to a class of 30.........at one hundred dollars a pop.

There is a guy who shows up at our range and routinely breaks all the safety rules you can imagine. Last week he was fiddling with his AR and was pointing it at the guy standing next to him! Suddenly the guy realized it and jumped back and spoke sharply to the gun. The guy laughed it off and said that the two of us, who both said he should keep the muzzle down range at all times, must be "Pink People." I assume he means we are gay because we did not want to risk getting shot?? I pack up and leave when he shows up, and yes I reported him but was told he had been a member for thirty five years and was a good guy.

I like guns and I think responsible adults should be allowed to have them and use them safely. But like with many rights, there have to be limitations so that the exercising of one's rights does not deprive others of their rights. It would be foolish, for example, to allow people to shoot fifty caliber rifles in densely populated areas unless that was done in a secure location. It is also a fact we can change our rules if we make them and then find they do not work.

I am constantly disappointed by the people in these discussion groups who say they never met a gun control advocate who made sense and those who go further and descend into stereotypes and name calling. Maybe these people need to look deeper into the issue or meet other people.

I have met lots of great people at the range and gun shops I go to. But there are a number of them that have made me support the idea of having some limitations and rules to protect the right to life of their fellow citizens.

What you're describing sounds like an enforcement problem, not problems which need additional laws or further restrictions of our rights. By way of example, what you experienced at your range would not have been allowed at the gun club I belong to. We have range safety officers who are respectful but vigilant. Someone being a good guy would not be an excuse for unsafe behavior. I live in a Chicago suburb and can assure you that if I shot any kind of gun here, unless it was at a range, I'd be arrested.
 
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Alas, the Second Amendment debate has been intentionally superficial in an effort to sway soccer moms. Fiendish leftists advance their agenda slowly behind a deceptive veil. The ultimate goal is gun confiscation under the pretext of enhancing public safety and stopping crime.
Soccer moms and other assorted dupes do not comprehend that they are being cynically used (and conservatives fear they will frighten them by discussing the real issue). Leftist intellectuals, however, understand the real issue—an armed citizenry stands immediately athwart the door leading to their idealistic Utopia.

Leftists despise America precisely because it is not a utopia, is temperamentally unsuited to utopian ideas, and cannot become a utopia in its present Constitutional formation. Leftist judges attempt to dismantle the restrictions of power and the checks and balances that hinder the coming of utopia. But these restraints are precisely what makes the Constitution so wise. It is what makes life in America so admirable to human reason, so temperate to ordinary human hopes, and so amenable to human prosperity.
 
2. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. (The successor to #1)
No, it's paved with anti-gun, close minded, arrogant liberal idiots. They aren't all like that but most of them are. It is useless to try and reason with them. I like to remind them that MY side is the one with all the guns. I also remind them that you can only kick a dog so many times before..... OOPS.... I know....I shouldn't act like that! Doesn't help our side one bit. I know....

I also don't care. Besides, I smile and wink at em" when I say it...;)
 
I think some can, but that is a small minority I suspect.

Most gun control advocates make statements like " I hate guns " , and "guns are just made to kill" For the most part they want to take all guns out of the hands of all citizens other than police or military. They don't want one, so they think you don't need one either.

There are a minority of gun control advocates that think more control means less crime, but they have not done their homework. . They think gun control is crime control ,and that simply is not true.
 
It's pretty black and white to me. The Amendment says "shall not be infringed." So you either support my right to own a firearm, to be an autonomous and self-determining, and to defend myself and those around me, or you do not. There is no gray area. The Second Amendment is not about hunting. It is about preventing the government from obtaining a monopoly on violence. You'll always notice that the anti-gunners start such arguments with "I support the Second Amendment BUT..." There is no buts. You either do, or you don't.
 
I also voted that respecting gun rights is incompatible with gun control. The idea that man possesses inalienable rights comes from an enlightenment view of the individual. The individual is strong, competent, dependable, independent, capable of fully participating in a democracy that requires personal responsibility.

The basic idea behind gun control seems to be that man is unworthy, can't be trusted, is flawed, and must be controlled by an outside, superior force that knows better. Specialist skills and knowledge are possessed by experts, and we create systems and depend on qualified experts to deliver the services we can't perform for ourselves. Sanitation, Clean water, Food, Health Care, Education, and above all, Public Safety are delivered by trained professionals. Many who live in high-rise buildings can't even drive a nail in a wall to hang a picture by themselves--- they must call the building "super" (superintendent) to come up and drive the nail for them. In this world view, Public Safety is provided by a system of laws and regulations and enforced by law enforcement. There is no place in this ordered worldview for an empowered individual with enough self responsibility and self control to possess and use firearms. The empowered individual is a threat to public safety and good order.
 
I must say I do find it interesting that the sheep want the shepherds, to become sheep. But the wolves? Well there’s always going to be wolves. So they get a pass. But those damned shepherds.....they’re the ones who need to disarm.


Edit: And look. California just had 5 killed at a school shooting......Where the shepherds are some of the most heavily regulated. Guess those mag restrictions really worked. I’m sure we’ll be hearing from someone (Rocketmedic) soon.
 
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My ancestors include Scots-Irish, Poles, Jews, Pottawatomie, Coosa, Creek, Bantu, and other people that failed to run away fast enough to escape the powers-that-be. All had been disarmed in the face of tyranny at one time or another. Many fought on after being disarmed. Many died.
In this, I am determined not to emulate my ancestors. I will not be disarmed by tyrants.
 
To the OP's statement/question: "Gun control advocates can also respect gun rights."

The more you educate a gun control advocate, the less control they advocate. Instead of arguing with them, take them shooting. In a perfect situation take them shooting outdoors, use a .22 rifle, have a huge emphasis on safety and give them hittable, satisfying targets. D o n o t hand them something that will knock them over upon trigger pull, is deafening or will shoot wildly. Your "fun" watching their discomfort will confirm their original feelings, and you (we) have lost.

As familiarity, comfort and enjoyment replace their ignorance & naturally resulting fear, these people will swing to your side. Hardly anyone does this; why is that?
 
They don't want one, so they think you don't need one either.


Almost the crux of the argument. More like 'They don't trust themselves with one, thus they don't trust anyone else with them either.' The moral and intellectual disconnect is that they don't realize criminals aren't going to obey gun laws, because by definition, they don't obey laws. Add in the naivety that they believe if you call 911, those shining knights in blue will be there in time to prevent any actual violence from happening. (Not disrespecting cops, just some folks' ideas of what they do.) A recipe for social utopia...sure. :confused:

I also voted that respecting gun rights is incompatible with gun control. The idea that man possesses inalienable rights comes from an enlightenment view of the individual. The individual is strong, competent, dependable, independent, capable of fully participating in a democracy that requires personal responsibility.

The basic idea behind gun control seems to be that man is unworthy, can't be trusted, is flawed, and must be controlled by an outside, superior force that knows better. Specialist skills and knowledge are possessed by experts, and we create systems and depend on qualified experts to deliver the services we can't perform for ourselves. Sanitation, Clean water, Food, Health Care, Education, and above all, Public Safety are delivered by trained professionals. Many who live in high-rise buildings can't even drive a nail in a wall to hang a picture by themselves--- they must call the building "super" (superintendent) to come up and drive the nail for them. In this world view, Public Safety is provided by a system of laws and regulations and enforced by law enforcement. There is no place in this ordered worldview for an empowered individual with enough self responsibility and self control to possess and use firearms. The empowered individual is a threat to public safety and good order.

Someone that thinks like this, perhaps?

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects - Robert A. Heinlien
 
Serious, leftist people who live, breathe and dream gun control have - for some reason - come to believe guns are inherently dangerous. Just a gun around is dangerous. Just a firearm of any time is a danger to any and all human life on the planet.

None of them (whom I have spoken with) will outright say so, but in conversation I get the idea they feel all guns are endowed with some evil curse, independent of the owner or possessor.

Seems to me they have a token regard for the Constitution and individual rights, but they hold guns - not metal, not plastic, not wood - as malevolent. Much as most of us regard uncontrolled radiation, poison sumac or mammalian feces. It is close to being a religious taboo or article of faith.
 
By definition a gun control advocate can't respect a gun owners rights.

So the answer is no, regardless of how open-minded they want you to think they are.

Not at all true, logically speaking. One could very easily argue for the right to have a shotgun or handgun, or even an AR for protection of self, but still not want folks to be able to buy a M249 SAW without a background check.

Binary thinking is unproductive. And there is too much speculative psychoanalysis in this thread.
 
No siree bob. That's like saying you support honor killings, and yet claiming to respect the rights of women in the same breath, or saying you're a gay Christian. The liberal capacity for claiming mutually exclusive beliefs knows no bounds.
 
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