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A thought on SWAT

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Hardware, Jan 22, 2007.

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  1. Hardware

    Hardware Member

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    I had a thought on SWAT teams in general this morning...

    Militaries protect the state from enemies and the police maintain law and order among the people. When you start using military forces as police the people start to look like the enemies of the state.

    We've discussed in the past the excesses of paramilitary style no-knock raids. And there's the argument that having paid for the big, expensive SWAT teams and their equipment the police administrations feel obligated to use them.

    Are SWAT teams simultaneously a violation of the prohibition from states having standing armies and the use of military forces against citizens?
     
  2. DMK

    DMK Member

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    Perhaps, but the states have had standing armies for a while now in the National Guard. Yes, technically they are federal, but they are at the Governors whim.

    SWAT teams are local jurisdiction anyway. I don't believe state police have SWAT teams do they?
     
  3. nhhillbilly

    nhhillbilly Member

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    Most State Police Teams have a SWAT team. SWAT teams save more lives then they take. They are necessary to save citizens and police officers.
     
  4. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Supporting evidence?
     
  5. darkknight

    darkknight Member

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    Swat Teams

    Swat teams or whatever their called in your area are not meant to take lives but rather use aggressive tactics to save them. Swat teams were created after WACO because regular officers/federal officers were not equipped (spelling) to handle or trained for, such a situation. I ve seen the article in playboy about swat teams but that is the result of poor report taking or poor location scouting. I agree entering the wrong house is wrong and even poor scouting as well as a disater when innocents suffer. If proper measures are followed missons go off without an issue and nobody is truly hurt. In my area swat usually serves over a 100 warrants and maybe once every two or three years do they actually take a life. I also live in a city of 1.5 million people. I also believe more uniformed conventional officers take more lives than any swat unit in the country every year. so should we not have police because they kill people that they are suppose to protect. Last year they raided a home with 100s of illegal weapons including RPG's and LAWS rockets. Nobody was hurt in that raid and that had a high probability of it.
     
  6. ilcylic

    ilcylic Member

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    No, SWAT teams were formed after various incidents in Los Angeles in 1967. Waco was entirely a Federal mishap.
     
  7. RNB65

    RNB65 Member

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    SWAT teams have been around a long time. Didn't you guys ever see the classic 70's TV show about a bunch of guys dressed in black driving around in the back of a painted bread truck? One of the great TV theme songs of all time!

    :cool:
     
  8. Dannyboy

    Dannyboy Member

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    SWAT teams are way overused. Just ask the Culosis of Fairfax, VA.
     
  9. darkknight

    darkknight Member

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    Ilcylic your right I screwed that up they were created after the incident at University of Texas, Austin. When the police had no measure to counter Charles Whitman in the tower over looking the campus. Also the Watts riots played a factor in creating Swat teams to counter these issues.
     
  10. Spreadfire Arms

    Spreadfire Arms Member

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    i heard that the UT Sniper shooting w/ Charles Whitman was the reason for the push of the modern-day active shooter schools, even though Columbine is the one that people seem to remember the most.
     
  11. strambo

    strambo Member

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    SWAT teams are necessary and save lives. SWAT teams are also overused because of the beaurocratic principle of "We paid all this $$ so we have to get something out of it". Also, more use, more stats=more budget justification.

    The enemy is entrenched beaurocratic thinking...I don't know how to combat it. It's like the "shoot the rest of the ammo up quick so we get the same amount next year" stuff that goes on in the military. If you shoot less than forcasted why can't we save the tax payers some $$? Maybe we'll need more next year and can save it...oh no, the beaurocrats will give you less next year and say that you don't need more because you didn't use it up last year. Stupid viscious cycle.
     
  12. Exmasonite

    Exmasonite Member

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    Given the current tools/weapons coupled with the ferocity of modern day criminals, i would say that SWAT teams are a very necessary component to police forces. Without them, police forces would be outgunned and at a real disadvantage against some violent criminals. SWAT teams make it possible to deal with these types of threats/situations WITHOUT having to involve the military. If it was just the regular police with no SWAT, they'd have to call the military/feds for backup for any violent situations.

    Just another tool in the chest to help safeguard our way of life.
     
  13. The-Fly

    The-Fly Member

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    I think Swat teams get way too much criticism. The VAST majority of the time they resolve dangerous situations without any violence. And the VAST majority of violent situations they do get involved in are handled properly.

    Yes, I am concerned about the times they invade the wrong person's house, but I don't we need to toss the baby out with the bathwater in this case.
     
  14. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    This issue has come up 1,000 times on this forum, and I think some posters have a hard time seeing the forest through the trees.

    Just like us regular folks with evil black rifles, hardware and training has absolutely NOTHING to do with abuse of power.

    If your local cops are corrupt and stupid, they can abuse your rights with a .38 M&P and a D-cell maglite. If your local PD is righteous, then they could have an M1 Abrams and never have an issue.

    Gee whiz, funny, just like us gun nuts that own 40 guns and have 60,000 rounds of ammo in our basement, and go to places like Thunder Ranch for fun...
     
  15. Mr.Caliber

    Mr.Caliber member

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    hey guys im on a SWAT team. and I relized that all the public usually hears about is the stuff that goes wrong. Like "the swat team shot a dog" stories:scrutiny:
    is that really that bad if you have to shoot a pitbull so it wont attack you? I think SWAT teams are there to HELP people so we should all appreciate them.


    just my thoughts


    Mr.Caliber
     
  16. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

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    I don't think that most people are apposed to the SWAT teams themselves, it is their use (or abuse) by their departments. With extra training, and expense that that incurs it seems that many police departments use to SWAT in way to many instances.
    As an example (and it shows you my basis for understanding), there is a cable show called Dallas SWAT. Now this show is there to show the Dallas area SWAT at work and at home, they are not there to show it in a poor light. So I have believe it is a fair representation of at least these guys.
    Having watched the show about a dozen times, I must say, 99% or what the the SWAT team does is drug busts. In 80% of the drug busts, they find NO drugs or at best a personal use amount. Now to get that 20% that might have over a few grams of coke, they bust doors (pull them off hinges with a truck), snatch windows off, use flashbangs, and storm in with ninja outfits with M16s in hand. Scaring the [email protected]( out of everybody. WAYY overkill for a 16 year old kid smoking a little pot. Now, I understand that making drug busts can be dangerous when you are dealing with a hardcore drug dealer, but (at least from what they show) that doesn't happen very often. If their intelligence is not good enough that they only find ANY drugs about 25% of the time, they would be serving the public at lot more by doing some basic work before doing the busts.
    Again, when there is a hostage situation, or a truly dangerous drug bust then yeah SWAT is justified, but they seem to be overused (and having no idea of how dangerous a dealer might be is not an excuse).
     
  17. doubleg

    doubleg Member

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    "Now to get that 20% that might have over a few grams of coke, they bust doors (pull them off hinges with a truck), snatch windows off, use flashbangs, and storm in with ninja outfits with M16s in hand. Scaring the [email protected]( out of everybody. WAYY overkill for a 16 year old kid smoking a little pot."

    Have to say I agree. Prohibition doesn't work for drugs that are accepted by the majority of a society.
     
  18. PARAGLOCK1

    PARAGLOCK1 Member

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    thought on swat

    personally ide feel good to have a SWAT unit in my community ,ide have to beleve its only for a good reason. If you choose to do drugs in your life, and continue as an adult,you must know eventually you will be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and then felony, then no guns. sounds boring to me . rather have law enforcement , and SWAT.
     
  19. nyresq

    nyresq Member

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    If you are watching "dallas swat" or any of the other shows that focus on swat teams, one really needs to understand that what you see on TV is what the producers and the police department public information officers want you to see.

    A few years ago the show "COPS" did a segment with NYPD. I was an officer in the south bronx at the time. The camera crews rode with some of the street crime units and a few Emergency Service (NYPD's swat) supervisors. The footage they collected wasn't very well reviewed byt the NYPD's info officers and what was shown on TV was probably some of the most realistic footage ever shown on COPS. It showed the usual suspects fighting with officers and getting arrested but it also showed the raids that produced crackheads high on drugs with needles hanging out of their arms while sitting next to a bag with $10,000 cash and a pound of cocaine... it showed cops chasing down suspects and ramming them while they were on foot... a few segments had cops talking about the people of NYC in a less then supportave tone and showed how the cops were fighting an uphill battle in many parts of the city. It really showed the worst of New York City and didn't do much coverage of the sweet "winning of hearts and minds" side of the NYPD. The special segment only ran for two episodes and then NYPD made them pull it. The complete episodes are not shown any more but sometimes they do show a small clip mixed in with other episodes.

    If you think Dallas SWAT or the other ones "are all the stuff that Swat teams do", then you need a head check. Its all the producers and the PIO's want you to see.

    In NYPD most of the standard house raids are done by detective squads with a couple of uniform cops. ESU doesn't get called unless the location is known to have guns, is an exceptionally large area or is a know hot spot for violence against police.

    As for the question does any department really need a SWAT team? The expression used in NYPD is "when people need help, they call the cops, but when the cops need help, they call ESU (NYPD's SWAT)"
     
  20. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    It is if you're in the wrong freaking house, which is a lot of my big issue with SWAT and cops in general. There is ZERO excuse for such mistakes, 'specially when innocent people end up dead due to police incompetence or corruption.
     
  21. Outlaw Man

    Outlaw Man Member

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    I understand and fully appreciate the dangers SWAT teams face and the good they do. Should they stick around? Probably so, though I believe there are other ways of handling most of those situations.

    However, I do not fully trust any organization that is better armed than your ordinary, law-abiding citizen.
     
  22. Mr.Caliber

    Mr.Caliber member

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    yea then you could possibley go to court and get fired:uhoh:
     
  23. Mad Chemist

    Mad Chemist Member

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    Just to play the devil's advocate for a bit, I'd argue that the problem is not SWAT teams. The real problem is the "War on Drugs" and the erosion of civil liberties that came with it.
    (Accompionied by the sound of me donning my Nomex and Asbestos suit.)
     
  24. The Rifleman

    The Rifleman member

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    I know that you must be getting tired of all my stories by now. But here is one that might interest you.

    My cousin Kevin, is a pretty decent guy. Kevin joined the PA State Police some 20 years ago and graduated at the top of his class.

    They offered him a job on the PA State Police SWAT team, he accepted. They trained Kevin in all the latest technic's and strategy's. I believe that they are not called into action - until there is no last resort. That is until one day in Indiana they recieved a call, a alledged terrorist holed up in a house in Indiana.

    It seem's that there was a man that did no harm to no one. Paid his bills and minded his own buisness. Then one night he recieved a fine for something he thought was unjust. Between him and the Indiana town police. The police would do one thing and he would retaliate. Everytime he paid one fine, he got another one for doing something else.. It escaladed to the point that he did some minor damage to the statue of Jimmy Stewart -the actor. Who was born in Indiana PA.

    The Police was ordered to issue him a summons or something and he refused to answer the door. Instead of waiting for him to come out of the house ( even if it was a couple of days later ) and arresting him on the street. They decided that they would arrest him that night. They called the SWAT team from Greensburg barracks and the SWAT team broke down his door and entered his house - without knocking or announcing who they were.

    Needless to say - my cousin ( on the SWAT Team) was shot in the face and almost died.

    To make matters worse they killed the home owner, after all dead men don't talk.

    My cousin almost died. All over some spray paint on a statue.

    If someone broke into your house in the middle of the night - would you shoot them? H3ll ya! They would have been burying more than one person that's for sure. This isn't a terrorist threat. It's just my opinion.

    Hitler also had a swat team - I believe that they called them the SS...
    They did the same tatic's and had the same results..
    Why is it when you need a cop - he is too busy to come while the crime is being committed. But when the doughnuts are ready they are the first ones through the door and Dunkin Doughnuts....
     
  25. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    And stereotypical BS like this has no place in a serious discussion and I'll lock the thread and cank the next person who can't argue a point without resorting to crap like this.

    Got it?
     
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