?AA#5 9mm Luger Load Data

[1SOW]

Does anyone have any experience with this powder and 9mm load results?

LEE AA#5 Load Data for 124gr Jacketted Bullet at 1.095" shows:
5.8gr start/1069'/sec To 6.4 max/1200'/sec

My Load Tests for a 125gr JHP at 1.095, (3.6" bbl Sig):
5.8gr 1010'/sec avg, 6.2 grs 1045'/sec avg.

I didn't expect to be this far off from the published bullet speeds, even with the slightly shorter Sig bbl.. The test rounds felt snappy and shot very accurately.
Maybe my chrono is off?

What do you think?

 

[rcmodel]

I think you could have 55 FPS difference between to identical guns shot side by side on the same day.

I think no two barrels are identical in exact bore dia, exact chamber dimensions, or surface finish & bore friction.

I think it is very unusual for published load data to ever match the real world results.

I think Lee neglected to tell you what barrel length the data was shot in. An inch can make a 55 FPS difference with some powders.

I think Fuggedaboutit.

rc

 

[1SOW]

rc, I hear what your saying, but I've never seen this much difference before.
I'm trying for about 1100'/sec +, and am not even close. The data showed 1200'/sec, so I "assumed" I could make 1100.
I didn't want to push harder (shorter oal/more powder), because of the high pressures this powder gens up. I'm already "seated" deeper than shown on other load manuals.

I'll go to better powders, but this just surprised me.

 

[Walkalong]

I have two 1911s in .45 that will show a 50+ FPS difference in all loads. The one barrel is simply "faster".

Your results look OK.

 

[buddhas]

AA #5

Sorry , no experience so far. I understand #5 ( med.) burn is pretty good with Rainier copper plated bullets. I will check and get and get back to you.

buddhas

 

[squarles67]

My guess is the short barrel but Accurate's data doesn't give the test barrel length. If it was really cold the day you shot that could cause some variation as well.

6.1g AA#5 gave me 1130 fps out of a CZ75B with a Sierra 125 JHP

 

[1SOW]

I tend to be stubborn, but I do understand what you guys are saying.

I'll have to buy powder to get the speed up. I rarely load hot, so I was trying use what I've got on hand.

HS-6? (dirty?)

squareles67, coincidence is that I shoot a 75B too. I need this to go 1100'/sec in my Sig 239. [70deg day].

 

[rcmodel]

Another thing is.
Lee doesn't have a ballistic lab.
Lee copied any data they publish from the Powder & bullet manufactures public data.

Most all powder manufactures use SAAMI minimum spec, single-shot pressure test barrels, not real guns.

Their results will almost certainly be higher then yours will.

rc

 

[squarles67]

Power Pistol will put some snap in 9mm, so will Blue Dot. Those are two of my favorites in 38 Super

 

[1SOW]

squareles67

, Blue Dot shoots dirty and a flame-thrower in 9X19 3.6" bbl.
This was a preliminary test for a S.D. load using a different bullet just to see how the AA#5 ran.

 

[Hondo 60]

You could try HS-6, but you're NOT gonna equal Hodgdon's data.
They used a closed pressure test barrel as rcmodel said.

I've tried 5 or 6 different Hodgdon powders in various calibers and almost always come up about ~100 fps slower (sometimes even more).

Good Luck & please stay safe.

 

[1SOW]

Guys, I'm not trying to equal anyone's powder data. I'm trying to get 1100+'/sec using a moderately clean-burning powder out of a Sig239.

Data showed AA#5 should do it, but maybe not. So far, I'm a 55'/sec slow.

 

[squarles67]

Didn't realize you were talking about self defense ammo, you're right about Blue Dot big flash (same for Power Pistol)

Have you tried HP-38/Win 231? 4.8g HP-38 under a 125g Rem Golden Saber gave me 1115fps out of the same CZ-75B. It is above max but I also tried 5g with the same bullet and got 1173fps

 

[ssyoumans]

I get 1106 fps out of a Glock 26 (3.5" barrel) with 4.9gr of Unique and a Berry's 124gr Plated Round Nose at 1.140". A little faster with a 124gr LRN.

Take a look at Unique, although some don't like the way it meters.

 

[Striker Fired]

There's always Longshot,that will get you the most speed as any.But I don't know if it will work good in the 9.

 

[1SOW]

Thanks guys.
What's funny, is I can give you loads that will run a 124gr bullet to 1400+ ft/sec in a 5" bbl, but I'm having trouble finding one to get a "tame" clean 1100+ in this Sig.

 

[gamestalker]

Published velocities are only as good as the instrument they were derived from. In this respect, some data is based on the use of test barrels, also know as universal recievers, not actual firearms.

On the other hand, the pressure estimates published are determined by the use of very accurate and expensive transducers, and is very reliable. Although no two firearms are going to have the exact same chamber or barrel dimensions, the pressure data we base our loads on is about as close as the industry can get in providing us with a safe range to work with. This is one of the primary reasons we are told to work up from a low end starting charge.

The only semi reliable velocity data out there are the one's that are based on tests performed from an actual firearm, rather than a universal testing reciever. So I would doubt there is anything hinky about your chronograph.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

LEE AA#5 Load Data for 124gr Jacketted Bullet at 1.095" shows:
5.8gr start/1069'/sec To 6.4 max/1200'/sec

My Load Tests for a 125gr JHP at 1.095, (3.6" bbl Sig):
5.8gr 1010'/sec avg, 6.2 grs 1045'/sec avg.

Something looks wrong with those numbers but it's not the comparison to the book velocities that bothers me. I have used AA#5 before and it's hard to believe you added .4 grains of powder to a 9mm case and only raised the velocity 35 fps. Did you have the chrono too close to the pistol muzzle? Something isn't right there...

Another question, why didn't you test the Max charge from the manual if you're trying to compare velocity numbers?

 

[BullfrogKen]

I use No 5 all the time. When I want a fast 9mm, I use Vihta Vuori 3N37.


I'd say your experience with not seeing published velocities is something we all experience. If I saw those results from a 3.6" barrel I'd call it fine. It is what it is. Although I agree with ArchAngel's comment on seeing such a small difference in velocity with a .4 gr increase.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

When I started handloading ~ 12 year ago, one of the first things I did was try to overload a 9mm pistol with every bullet and powder combination to see what happened.

AA#5 is a special case.
If a gun cannot be blown up with AA#5, it cannot be blown up.
Not only does AA#5 have a very high speed-density product, but it is also peaky. By "peaky" I mean a large change in the change pressure per in powder [ second derivative is change in change]. Blue Dot is peaky like this, but Blue Dot is so slow and bulky in comparison that Blue Dot can do almost nothing in the short and thick chambered 9mm.

I don't think I ever went passed 8.4 gr AA#5 in 124 gr.
That is because of all the parts I blew out of my Kel-Tec P11 with AA#5 and 115 gr.

At 9.8 gr the primer would pierce and the case would bulge with a .19" case support and cases with webs .16" thick [very typical for 9mm].
As I kept going, before I reached 12 gr, I had blown the extractor in half, the extractor pin in half, the bottom plate off the magazine, and the magazine follower, magazine spring, and ammo landed around my feet. Gas and metal sprayed out the back of the pistol via the slot in the slide for the ejector.
I now stock extra Kel-tec parts for that kind of unscheduled disassembly.

Contrast AA#5 with Power Pistol, which just keeps kicking harder, making more noise, making the chrono go higher, while the pressure increases are small.

 

[1SOW]

ArchAngelCD:

Something looks wrong with those numbers but it's not the comparison to the book velocities that bothers me. I have used AA#5 before and it's hard to believe you added .4 grains of powder to a 9mm case and only raised the velocity 35 fps. Did you have the chrono too close to the pistol muzzle? Something isn't right there...

Another question, why didn't you test the Max charge from the manual if you're trying to compare velocity numbers?

Ah, someone read my post. I felt exactly the same, and that's why I asked in the first place.
The CE chrono still reads my go-to USPSA loads the same as always. The chrono was out 10' from the muzzle, 68+ degs, sunny, mid-day, sky screens on, new 9v battery. The results I got "here" bothered me. It did not make sense to me. Speed should have gone up more than it did

With the "illogical" results I got at 6.2grains, I didn't trust going to 6.4 due to the chance it might "spike" the pressure up too high. Something wasn't making sense.
I'm not real fond of using the MAX load of ANY powder as my load. I prefer to be at 85-90% of max to get the speed I need.

Clark, A#5 is not a particularly fast burn-rate powder. It IS very dense with very small particles. 231 and n320 are "faster burning" powders than #5. I've loaded many many thousand rds with n320 mostly. #2 IS fast-burning. #7 is slower yet. The "sub-sonic" 1100ft/sec with a 124/125gr jacketedHP is a long ways from being a super hot load.

 

[squarles67]

Lyman #49 shows a max of 6.2g AA#5 with a 125 JHP with a velocity of 1078fps using a universal receiver with 4" bbl. That's not really all that far off from your initial reading. I'm not looking at it right now but IIRC there were only three powders that got more than 1100 fps, Power Pistol, Blue Dot and one other I can't remember right now.

edit to add: I think the third one was AA#7

 

[Clark]

1SOW
Clark, A#5 is not a particularly fast burn-rate powder.

At low pressures it is slow, but at high pressures it is fast.
I don't know the official bomb test, but I can tell from handloading that AA#5 is way faster than Power Pistol at high pressure, but show up in burn charts to the right of PP.

 

[Walkalong]

Just as 700X and AA #2 are fairly forgiving at higher pressures compared to Red Dot.

The closed bomb test gives the powder a place on a chart, but they can act completely differently at high vs low pressures, or vice versa, as in the case of W-296.

 

[1SOW]

H6-6 will also do it with low pressures according to Hogdon---I know-I know. May be what I try/buy next.
Thanks to everyone for the inputs.