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Absolutely No Live Ammunition In The Training Area.

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by Trunk Monkey, Feb 9, 2018.

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  1. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Once a quarter my church does firearms training for the security team. The training is always split into two parts. One part is strictly dry practice and the next day we go to the range.

    Every time they do a training session they send out the same email. Date, time, place, what to bring.

    Every time they send out the email it says the same thing for the dry session "Absolutely no live ammunition in the training area" and every time out of 10 or 15 people that show up about 12 of them walk into that training room with a loaded gun.

    I've mentioned it to the head trainer and he tells me that he agrees with me that if the email says no live ammunition then nobody should be entering that room with a loaded weapon but he doesn't enforce it.


    During one of the training sessions he asked if anybody had any safety concerns and I called the whole room on it. One of the guys got all bent out of shape and told me it's real world training and you need to learn to know the status of your weapon. I do know the status of my weapon I unload in the car before I walk into the building because I've been told no live ammunition in the training area.

    I really don't have a question to ask here, I'm absolutely convinced I'm correct that number one there should not be any live ammunition in that room when they're doing designated dry practice. Number two if they're going to put that in the email they need to enforce it.

    I guess my question is how do I get that point across to the people who are in charge of the training? I'm positive it's only a matter of time before somebody is going to have a negligent discharge either loading or unloading weapon or not properly unloading a weapon before they start the dry practice.
     
  2. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

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    I agree with you.

    Maybe is Bill the usher is a Navy SEAL, I'd be ok with it... But then you gotta worry about Nancy the organ player doing a desk pop with her arthritic hands.

    Doing dry practice with a loaded gun is like driver training while texting and eating. Yeah, people do it, but adding another element is dangerous and takes away from what the real training is about.

    Maybe suggest dummy guns for dry training.

    And to say I agree again, it only takes one mistake to take a life. No one ever died from being too safe.
     
  3. shafter

    shafter Member

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    The OP is right. There should be no live ammo in the training area. Leaving the ammo in the vehicle is a good idea, and checks should be done before the training starts. Even among the most elite in the military and law enforcement there are safety rules that are strictly enforced.

    Personally, I wouldn't want to be part of a team like this. It sounds like a really bad day waiting to happen.
     
  4. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    ''I guess my question is how do I get that point across to the people who are in charge of the training? I'm positive it's only a matter of time before somebody...''

    Church function or for church benefit. Contact Deacon Board and/or Pastor and advise of issue, ask how's the church insurance policy or liability fund doing under current market conditions
     
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  5. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    I was actually trained as an instructor for police courses all those years ago and here's how I'd handle it... Each student (and this goes double for "in-service" classes where you're dealing with folks who carry 24-7... and are certain that they "know it all") would be required to produce their weapon and show that it was empty - before being allowed in the classroom... Similarly any demonstrations involving weapons in a classroom setting required the instructor to not only use an un-loaded weapon - but actually show those attending that, in fact, the weapon was un-loaded.... before proceeding with the demonstration.... Guns at our academy that were routinely used for training purposes - not only had firing pins removed but also had the handles painted red so you could see at a glance what you were dealing with....

    If it were me and the instructors weren't strictly adhering to their policy... I wouldn't attend under any circumstances, period.
     
  6. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    Sounds like a case study called, "How to Get Shot." This is what Blue guns, and yellow drop-in barrels are for, and this is exactly why "All Guns Are Always Loaded."

    If you can't trust these people to follow simple instructions like 'no ammo', why would you trust them to handle a hopefully-unloaded firearm in a training environment.

    In my opinion, I would not return to that situation until policy changed to require mechanical disabling of every firearm involved, and counter-verification of every firearm by every person involved.
     
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  7. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    Morons with a weapon................not a god mix.
     
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  8. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^
    NRA training also required all guns to be on table/cylinders open/slides back/magazines out/inspected before class begins.

    (And some folks who'd come that night had to be helped to understand how that was done. Good people... but the state of knowledge/experience was all over the map -- which I guess is what the class is for in the end)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  9. gotmine

    gotmine Member

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    The situation must be addressed and quickly resolved before I'd enter the room again. I sometimes have doubts trusting myself without visually checking at least twice, so why should I put myself in with folks which don't follow the simplest of requirements for safety purposes.
     
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  10. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    See that's what I think they should do. They have a security office in the lobby. They should make everybody go to the security office and have one of the trainers there to have them unload their weapons and show clear.Then take the empty weapon to the training room
     
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  11. Louca

    Louca Member

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    To the OP, I can see that your post has two parts to it: the first part you're venting because you're frustrated, but in the second part you ask a very important question. I have to challenge you on how dedicated you are to your church and this team, but more importantly to your own principles.

    What I see going on here is a lack of truthfulness between some members of the team. Some follow the rule of having an unloaded firearm and no ammunition in training and others do not. And there you have the seed of distrust being planted. And one thing you definitely do NOT need on a security team is lack of trust between the members.

    The question for you is which is more important: for you to be on the team doing the best you can, or for you to step off the team because it IS NOT a safe team but rather a dishonest, untrustworthy team? What I would do is approach any and all people involved in the leadership of this and speak to them face to face about the problem. What they say and more importantly how they act on this should help you answer the question above.
     
  12. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    I do want to clarify one thing everyone that comes into the training room is required to unload their weapon and have somebody else verify that the weapon is empty and the chamber is clear. then they stack their magazines on a table or put it in the gun case or whatever.

    Having said that though I still don't think that's safe. And again the rules say don't bring any ammunition into the training room.

    The one time that I addressed the issue they went over the safety rules and then the head trainer asked if anybody had any safety concerns. I raise my hand and I picked up a loaded magazine from someone's gun case and I said " Your email stated no live ammo in the training area. This shouldn't be here. This isn't safe."

    That's when the other guy started talking about how this was real world training and if you were going to carry a gun you ought to know the status of your weapon. He was Special Forces (and that was verified) so everybody kind of bowed before him.

    I'm going to State again that I believe that if you were doing dedicated dry training there should not be a single round in that room.
     
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  13. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I have no idea how many of the LEO LODD cases itemized over the years on The Officer Down Memorial Page involved "live ammunition within the training area", but that's because I've lost count.
     
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  14. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    Let me add this, when I took my NRA certified concealed handgun permit class the instructor did the class in the basement of his home.

    He had a table at the head of the stairs leading down to the basement and his assistant sat there and every person who walk through the front door had to unload their weapon and show clear. Then he made everyone leave their magazines and ammunition on that table before going down to the basement.

    Now my question is "that IS the way it's supposed to be done right?" I'm not adding some extra curricular requirement when I say there literally should not be any live ammunition in that training room am I?
     
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  15. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    I can't really add anything to what's already been said. I think everyone is in agreement with you OP.

    Not a "team" I'd want to be a part of.
     
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  16. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    Who is conducting the training? Is this someone who is a member of the church or an actual training company? Maybe go to the church leadership and try to get them to hire a different company to conduct the training. Cite your concerns along with examples of shootings during training and you should have a good case.

    I like the idea of having a table outside the room for all ammo. Have some paper bags available too for people to put the mags in so they can write their name on the bag. Most people don't seem to mark their mags which might make it hard to differentiate which mag belongs to who if you have 3 guys show up with Glock 19s.
     
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  17. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

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    One member of the church one professional trainer

    One of the senior pastors is generally there during the training. I really believe if the day I made a complaint in the middle of the class didn't get anything done nothing else I could do will either
     
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  18. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    "I'm professional enough I don't have to follow the rules" is a giant red flag for me. I have given people their money back and asked them to leave class before when I was told that. It is a primary indicator of an unsafe attitude, not just to that rule, but in general.

    A lot of times I hear that this rule in particular is okay to ignore, because all the other rules are being followed. The problem with safety rules is that they intentionally layered so that if one gets broken by accident, you have three or four more standing between you and tragedy. Intentionally removing a layer of safety because there are a few others is recklessly dangerous. There is no need for live ammunition to be in the classroom, so there is no excuse for it to be there.

    I would personally take the instructor aside and ask him which of his other safety rules he plans on violating.
     
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  19. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    All weapons should be inspected before they are brought into the training area and all participants checked for additional weapons. If you are doing role training FOF this is especially important as someone may default to a knife or other weapon while playing their role.

    I mark all of the weapons after they have been inspected. An inexpensive way to do that it to get a brightly colored skein of yarn and run it through the barrel. I've also seen bright colored tape used. That way everyone knows the weapon has been checked.

    I would refuse to participate if basic safety measures like this weren't followed.
     
  20. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

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    The bigger issue is that if the rule is "no live rounds" then everyone needs to play by that rule , full stop. If that's not going to be the case, then that needs to be removed as a rule.

    As a full time LE firearms instructor I can tell you what best practices are. I can also tell you what usually happens, and I can tell you what usually get's most people in trouble. However none of that matters, as right now you guys have an issue with rule following by people feeling it doesn't apply to them.

    -Jenrick
     
  21. shoobe01

    shoobe01 Member

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    1000% agree that the sterile area is sterile, no exceptions, no "big boy rules" etc. No. Never. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. We also don't do FoF with wax bullets in live revolvers anymore, we all wear eyes and ears on the range, etc.

    Also want to emphasize, Before You Get Into The Room. Only way to do this is with someone (with a spine!) on the door, inspect everything (or leave it outside the room). Too many pockets and pouches in range bags, so voluntary display of unloaded stuff in the room once class starts is a great way to miss something, and someone reaches into his Live pouch and shoots you by accident.

    I agree, it needs to be fixed, or at best I'd show up wearing my armor with plates and a CAT every time and when asked would explain I don't trust y'all because you don't follow range safety practices and not shoot me.
     
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  22. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    1. No ammo in the classroom, period, I don't care if you are my namesake off SEAL Team 2.

    2. Drawing and unloading a pistol is itself a somewhat hazardous operation.
    The Army uses barrels half full of sand at the entry to cold gun areas.
    What does a church have?
    There are commercial devices, as simple as a briefcase lined with heavy Kevlar.

    And no, OP, unloading in your vehicle is not the right answer, either; I have seen two cars wounded in the process.

    I think I would carry two guns. I would case my carry weapon and leave it outside the classroom, and bring in an already empty gun for dryfire.
     
  23. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    What you are doing would be a good use of air-soft pistols. They function and feel similar to service pistols; but are unlikely, when used correctly, to cause injury. They may not be macho enough for Special Forces "Dude" but even a single accident in training, even if no one is injured, to taint the entire program.

    Going back to when I was at the academy in California, we used Air-Soft pistols for the felony traffic stop class.

    ####
    As I wrote this I recalled the instructors expression when one of the cars backfired. . . If "oh, my god", was the name of an expression, that would have been it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  24. Louca

    Louca Member

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    You have already given the senior pastor and the "pro trainer" a safety warning. I would let that be the last warning. And to show your seriousness, you might want to let them know it was the final warning. If next time you go to training the safety concern happens again, I would say it's time to say goodbye.

    As ClickClick alluded to, I would question the quality of the "professional trainer". Him not sharing your concern is a huge waving red flag.
     
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  25. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

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    whats the point of having armed security if you disarm your security on a set schedule? Is this an issue where people bring their KelTecs in to train with their Glocks, and the loaded gun is never handled in the course, or where they're bringing their range gun in loaded? The first one seems perfectly reasonable, the second I would agree with you.
     
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