Accidental discharge while chambering a round?

[FullEffect1911]

I know this is a tad outside the scope of the question. However I have accidentally double fired an XD .40 before. For whatever reason the trigger reset on that pistol doesn't agree with me. Occasionally after firing one shot another immediately got fired because my finger came off to reset the trigger and immediately back for another trigger pull. I am guessing the recoil of the pistol caused me to do it along with it being a somewhat unfamiliar trigger to me.

One of the reasons I won't own an XD, they just don't agree with me.

 

[ForumSurfer]

So any old lady who has ever fallen and broken her hip has done it on purpose? Or would she just be negligent of allowing herself to live to old age?

Negligent and ignorant are two words that people often get offended by, when they aren't necessarily meant to be negative.

Yes, the little old lady who breaks her hip may be negligent. She might have been trying something that she had no business doing alone (understandable, but negligent none the less). If she slips on grease that you spilled on the floor as she was walking by, then it was an accident for her.

But technically, yes...I don't believe in accidents. You have a series of events that lead to a predictable results. Car accidents aren't accidents. Someone contributes negligence...always. Just ask your insurance company.

What we usually call accidents are in fact factory negligence or user negligence for not maintaining the firearm or replacing worn parts.

So yeah, I agree with the other guy...no accidents.

In regards to the OP, no I have never seen a semiauto (pistol) fire after being racked.

 

[Loosedhorse]

What we usually call accidents are in fact factory negligence or user negligence for not maintaining the firearm or replacing worn parts.

Let's talk car accidents. Most are caused by one or both involved drivers. There may be other factors (weather, visibility, road conditions, etc.) but we can always say the operator "should" have taken these into account. Similarly, someone who falls on ice "should" have take more precautions--or the person who is responsible for that patch of ground "should" have done a better job of clearing it.

Yet, that word "accident" exists. In most contexts, it is meant to cover understandable, common, "human" lapses in attention or judgment.

I actually think there is a danger in labeling every accident a "negligent," as it implies that just be being vigilant and/or trained enough, all accidents can be prevented. I doubt that is true, given human frailties. And therefore, accepting the existence of accidents may cause us to use additional safeguards (like seatbealts and airbags), rather than just depend on attention alone.

It was a long time ago that first military pilots/aviators, and then commercial ones, decided to replace (or supplement) their "constant vigilance" with something much more dependable and less taxing.

A checklist.

We should perhaps all consider implementing one, and check it off everytime we handle a gun without intention of its discharging. Oh, BTW, it takes a minimum of 2 people to perform a checklist dependably. If you choose not to, well, you're just a negligent waiting to happen.



The Checlist Manifesto.

 

[Strahley]

So any old lady who has ever fallen and broken her hip has done it on purpose? Or would she just be negligent of allowing herself to live to old age?

I thought we were talking about guns here, not old ladies

 

[Hammerdown77]

I'd say about 90% of the people I see at the gun range chambering a round have their finger on the trigger.

Someone should make a law...

 

[Manco]

also notice... the slide is closed in that picture. I'm curious where you put your finger when the slide is in the process of closing?
THAT'S my whole point. During the process of releasing that slide and it slamming forward, if you had your finger anywhere near that location, you'd be bleeding soon thereafter. Get my point now? It's all about timing.

I don't speak for KodiakBeer, but as for myself, I normally keep my finger slightly lower but still firmly on the frame rather than alongside the trigger. If there is insufficient room on a particular gun to avoid touching the slide, then I'd angle my finger out to the side, away from the gun and above the trigger--anywhere as long as it is not close to touching the trigger.

I know I'm going to regret getting into this, but as for the semantics being discussed, in the context of firearms accidental discharges are synonymous with unintended discharges since the latter are generally viewed in a negative light--if it was not intended or expected, then it was an accident, much like any other accident you could have. It is true that the vast majority of accidental discharges of firearms are caused by negligence, so normally I don't mind the term "negligent discharge" being used in order to emphasize the need to practice safe handling, but I think that the continual denial and outright disparagement of the term "accidental discharge" can be a bit overzealous at times, to say the least. I guess I just don't like seeing people being chastised (or at the very least corrected) for their proper use of the English language.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I guess I just don't like seeing people being chastised (or at the very least corrected) for their proper use of the English language.

Agree with your whole statement. "Accidental" and "negligent" have been jargonized--with a big push from mlitary and LE training--into very specific meanings for unintentional discharges, with the best of intentions for clarity and safety. But that specialized use does not change the fact that accidental continues to have a common meaning, and that meaning fits many unintentional discharges.

In a previous thread discussing a A-N-UD, I was dismayed to read one poster write that his action plan to prevent future discharges was to make sure that the gun wasn't loaded when it shouldn't be--exactly the same plan as the one that allowed the discharge in the first place. I worry that labeling discharges as negligent encourages the idea that we should "take the same precautions as before, but do it harder this time!"

Labeling it as an accident might convince someone that additional, new precautions (and behaviors) are called for. Actually, I don't mind BOTH of these approaches used together--so maybe we should just keep saying they're both accidental and negligent. (Even the law distinguishes between simple negligence--that involved in most accidents--special negligence, and gross negligence).

 

[KodiakBeer]

There's only one cause for a negligent discharge; putting your finger on the trigger.

There's only one way to prevent a negligent discharge; keep your finger off the trigger.

We don't need to make this complicated. Just inculcate the habit into muscle memory to always handle a gun (every gun; loaded, unloaded, action open, action closed, slide on, slide off, stripped frame, toy gun - all guns) with your finger off the trigger.

One cause. One cure.

 

[Loosedhorse]

One cause. One cure.

Not really. Many of the tales of ADs I hear involve dry-fire and/or Glock take-down. In other words, the finger was supposed to be on the trigger, but the gun was thought clear, even though it wasn't. These tales usually include distraction and/or letting someone else handle the gun (and then failing to recheck its state when it was handed back); failing to keep all ammo out of the practice area; failure to use a device that makes the unloaded status of the gun obvious and sure, etc.

So the real cause is making human mistakes, and taking too few precautions. I didn't make this more complicated: it is what it is. If it were really that simple, there would be no ND/ADs. And I wonder if such "under-estimation" of the problem isn't a big part of ADs happening.

(Not to say that muscle memory to keep finger off trigger--and muzzle pointed safely--aren't big parts of the answer: they are.)

 

[El Tejon]

Pain, yes, they do happen that is why when we load or unload we always follow the Four Rules. Load into a sand barrel or get a bunch of phone books and via the miracle of duct tape create your own backstop.

I do not know how common they are. I am unaware of any study quantifying it. Be aware that all self-loading handguns (and most firearms) are capable of being discharged upon loading, regardless of where your finger is.

From my own experience in four decades of shooting it has transpired once with an 870 shotgun. We were doing one handed reloading drills, I dropped one in the chamber and closed the action and the weapon discharged, downrange and I nicked a piece of the barricade.

Remember, the Four Rules light is always on, even in the "safety" of your own home.

Construct a "fiddle" area in your own home and watch that backstop.

 

[WardenWolf]

Back to the original topic, a seriously dirty firing pin channel can potentially cause the pin to protrude despite having a firing pin return spring. As can a minor manufacturing defect such as a burr in the channel.

As for AD versus ND, a person who, for whatever reason, fumbles their gun and it hits the floor and goes off isn't necessarily negligent. Things happen. I've had my gun fall out of its IWB holster when I was pulling up my pants after doing my business on the toilet. It had become positioned just right that its weight caused my waistband to flip over, allowing the gun to fall out. It didn't go off, but if it had, would it have been negligent? No, of course not. It's an accident, at least for the first time. It only becomes negligent if you reasonably know of the risks but do not take proper efforts to mitigate them. I am now aware of the risks, so I make sure I support the area immediately adjacent to the holster so it cannot flip over.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Many of the tales of ADs I hear involve dry-fire and/or Glock take-down. In other words, the finger was supposed to be on the trigger

If the gun was loaded and they weren't planning on destroying something, the finger wasn't supposed to be on the trigger. This all seems pretty black and white to me.

 

[loneviking]

Kodiakbeer, there's a rude awakening in your future. Handguns do discharge without a finger on the trigger and there are slamfires. Denying these facts only ensures that you are going to have a hard lesson to learn.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Kodiakbeer, there's a rude awakening in your future. Handguns do discharge without a finger on the trigger and there are slamfires.

We are discussing NEGLIGENT vs ACCIDENTAL discharges. There is only one cause for a NEGLIGENT discharge - finger on trigger when it shouldn't have been.

ACCIDENTAL discharges might make up 1% of "unintentional" discharges, at most. Good maintenance will minimize that and adherence to the other rules of gun safety (those not involving finger-on-trigger) will minimize injuries.

 

[Loosedhorse]

This all seems pretty black and white to me.

It's not to me, and the fact that AD/NDs happen--happen to people who "know" the rules--suggest it isn't black and white to lots of folks.

For example, your idea that "the finger belongs off the trigger" if you intend to pull the trigger (but don't realize the gun is loaded) is hardly a useful rule for preventing an ND in that situation. A useful rule would be more like check that the gun is unloaded--then check again, or have someone else check it.

Your rule also ignores things like reflexes (if you stumble or struggle with someone, it's not the last three fingers that grasp, it's all of them) and training (if you do a lot of reload/shoot drills--dry-fire or live at the range--and then immediately reload for carry, you're at higher risk to "automatically" pull the trigger after inserting the mag, 'cause you just spent an hour doing that).

I understand that what works for you works for you. I just disagree that your "one rule" theory is sufficient for all people under all circumstances. Except of course, it's always ontologically true: discharges involving finger-on-trigger can't occur unless finger is on trigger, in the same simplistic way that gun violence can't occur without guns.

 

[Claude Clay]

KodiakBeer has said it rightly---no need for me to repeat

good picture also!!

 

[KodiakBeer]

For example, your idea that "the finger belongs off the trigger" if you intend to pull the trigger (but don't realize the gun is loaded) is hardly a useful rule for preventing an ND in that situation.

If you don't know the gun is unloaded, your finger shouldn't pull the trigger or be placed on the trigger or be placed near the trigger. This is what "keep your finger off the trigger" means.

As for your other example of stumbling, reflexes, etc, they are also rendered harmless if your finger isn't on the the trigger.

And yes, even very experienced people are at risk of a negligent discharge because... we can get complacent and forget the cardinal rule. I'm not immune. None of us are immune. The best we can do is reinforce these basic rules every time we pick up a gun.

 

[Dulvarian]

My trigger finger is not even in contact with the frame, the trigger guard, anything, if I am racking the slide. Same if I am dropping the slide stop. Same if I am slamming a mag into my Glock. There really isn't that much difference between complete separation and a magical position that will never 'get you'.

YMMV.

That way, if there ever is a problem, I skip right over any consideration of what I did wrong and go straight to looking at the gun.

And, if I am not mistaken, Glocks should never fire when dropping the slide, even if you are holding the trigger down. Read the manual, it is one of the safety checks you are supposed to do upon reassembly. Therefore, it would have to be a touch to the trigger, post chambering and trigger reset, unless there was a serious mechanical malfunction. In fact, this is a safety check for every auto that I have ever read the manual on, and one that I test, regardless.

 

[railroader]

I have a charles daly dda in 45 acp that shot through my queen size bed. I had the slide locked back and I stuck a loaded mag in the gun. When I dropped the slide the hammer followed and bang. Scared the crap out of me and the wife. The firing pin safety didn't help. I sent it in for repair. Charles daly said there was some crud down in the gun that held the sear up so the hammer followed. They put a new hammer and sear in it anyway. Mark

 

[BLB68]

No.

End of discussion.

I don't think that phrase has ever ended a discussion in the history of the Internet.

 

[yhtomit]

This discussion is making me grateful for protective earmuffs, and I hope will keep me vigilant about making sure they're in place every time I handle a gun with ammo in the same zip code

(Having once -- only once, but plenty! -- fired my 22/45 with my earmuffs around my neck instead of on my ears, I don't want to ever experience a trigger-followed discharge with a .45 ... wimpy as a 22LR round might be, it left my ears ringing for a long time.)

timothy

 

[AJChenMPH]

I almost had one, and it would have been an AD (vs. a ND) had it not been a snap-cap I had racked as opposed to a live round:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=474638