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Accidentally flicking off the safety

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by jgooderh, Dec 15, 2008.

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  1. jgooderh

    jgooderh Member

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    Hello Everyone;

    I've been a lurker for a while and I recently had an interesting experience that I wanted to share.

    I recently received my CPL here is MI and I don't quite have the gear and attire ready to start carrying my Witness (no gun belt, etc..) so I've taken to pocket carry the Bobcat when I can carry. I do have a pocket holster to keep the gun oriented barrel down and grip ready and it sits in my front right pocket.

    After using the toilet, I would tuck my t-shirt in and in the process of smoothing the t-shirt out before hiking up my jeans, I could feel my fingers switch the safety off (I carry with it on). The first time it took a minute to register and when I checked it, it was indeed off. Second time, it registered immediately. Now I carry it in 'condition 2' so I was not in imminent danger, but it was somewhat interesting that I could flick the safety off without meaning too. This is not a condemnation of the gun or its ergonomics. It's brand new as well. It's just another little anecdote about staying safe, paying attention, and being observant about all things. The experience does not make me more tentative about carrying either. Quite the opposite, it made me glad that I was able to recognize what was happening with my gear and that in the future I will be diligent in carrying my firearms.

    So I just wanted to share that little experience/observation with you. This is a great site and I look forward to contributing.

    P.S. I am looking to get a 5 stitch instructors belt as a gun belt and some larger trousers after the holidays. I'll let you all know my impressions on carrying that Witness (I'll be carrying it in a Uncle Mikes IWB, the same way I carry Robert, Cond.2 with the safety on BTW).

    Have a merry Xmas!:)
     
  2. rondog

    rondog Member

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    FWIW - I've trained myself to handle my 1911's that, as soon as my hand grasps the grip, my thumb automatically pushes the thumb safety up (on). Whether it's cocked and locked or not, my thumb just goes to the safety first. I do NOT want to accidentally put a .45 hole in my leg, or foot, or bed, or wall, or floor, or.....
     
  3. Superlite27

    Superlite27 Member

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    "Man shoots self in leg"

    I'm not preaching, and I always advocate carrying in a manner that is the most comfortable FOR YOU. I realize that many people can, and do, "pocket carry" safely.

    I just wonder how many of the "Man Shoots Self In Leg" headlines result from doing so. I'm guessing that these types of ND's are the result of bad choices such as just sticking the gun in a pocket without any type of holster, or putting other items in the same pocket such as car keys, but the idea of carrying in a manner that points the muzzle of the firearm AT YOURSELF every time you sit down just doesn't feel comfortable to me. I think carrying something such as a DAO revolver in your pocket would be much safer than something with a thumb safety that could accidentally be switched off. (Could, and obviously already has).

    This is not to say that waist carry is 100% safe. I used to carry an ambidextrous 1911 on my hip, and had "unsafed" it while getting in and out of my vehicle several times. I determined that it was being caused by the "outside" or left handed thumb safety rubbing against the vehicle seat while I was entering or exiting the vehicle. I took several measures to correct this. I now carry a 1911 with a right hand only safety. I have also developed the muscle memory of removing it and putting it in a console mount during the process of entering. (Any manner, open or concealed, is legal in Missouri)

    This has corrected the problem of accidentally "unsafing" for me. Hopefully, the worst headline you will get from me is: "Man Shoots Vehicle Coffee Cup Holder".
     
  4. The Bushmaster

    The Bushmaster Member

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    rondog...I do the same drill with my 1911. First contact is the heel of the hand on the back of the grip and the thumb under the safety. As the gun clears the holster and is starting up the thumb moves to the top of the safety. Upon completion of the draw and the gun being almost up the safety comes off. My trigger finger has yet to engage the trigger until I decide to fire. I would hope that I would not be drawing as I train that if I do draw the weapon that I intend to fire it or I would not draw it in the first place.

    Good morning Superlite27...:D I had the same problem with my Fire Star 9mm X 19. It has an amidextrous safety too. The Kimber I carry now does not...Problem solved.
     
  5. FoMoGo

    FoMoGo Member

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    1911 carrier here also, I too have the habit of safety checking the safety with my thumb at draw.
    1911s are a wonderful pistol for me, great tactile places for instinctive finger placement.
    Top of thumb against underside of thumb safety upon draw, thumb on top of thumb safety upon target acquisition, pad of trigger finger on the projection of the slide stop till determination to fire has been made.
    Done deliberately over and over... it becomes ingrained just like a little kid learning his ABC's.
    My ambi safety will be finding its way into a drawer and a gunsite low ride safety taking its place.
    I can operate the left side safety well enough left handed... but dont care for the added chance for the safety to be accidentally wiped off.


    Jim
     
  6. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    I almost replaced the safety on my EMP with a single side until I realized that the ambi side of the safety can be used to check if the safety is still engaged. I now routinely check to ensure the safety hasn't been swiped accidentally.
     
  7. Sniper X

    Sniper X Member

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    I reach up and check the safety about twenty times a day on my 1911 carry gun. Always have always will for the same reason mentioned, it is easy for one to be knocked into the FIRE mode....way to easy.
     
  8. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    Not many people pocket carry a 1911. Decocking a 1911 is far more dangerous, in my opinion, than carrying it cocked and locked.
     
  9. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    You do understand that it was designed to be carried that way, right? :scrutiny:
     
  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Yep, second nature.
     
  11. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Trading a safety for a decocker isn't exactly an "improvement". It's still relying on a mechanical device to provide a measure of safety when carrying/handling.
     
  12. BADUNAME37

    BADUNAME37 Member

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    jgooderh

    Welcome to the site!

    With a double action only (DAO) revolver the only thing one has to worry about is possibly pulling the trigger long and hard for it to discharge.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  13. Coyote3855

    Coyote3855 Member

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    Carrying any firearm implies a certain level of awareness and responsibility. When I carry a 1911, I carry cocked and locked. I check the safety with some regularity. That doesn't mean the 1911 is inherently unsafe to carry cocked and locked. It means "stuff happens" and I need to be aware of those possibilities. About 45 years ago, I carried a flattop Ruger Blackhawk with the hammer down on an empty chamber (no transfer bar in those days). After a long day on horseback, I discovered the Blackhawk was fully cocked with a 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint under the hammer. Went right out and bought a holster with a hammer loop. The only real safety on any firearm is the one between your ears.
     
  14. FoMoGo

    FoMoGo Member

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    Tile setter, Would you carry any of the striker fired pistols with a round in the chamber?
    Carrying a Glock with a round chambered is essentially like carrying a 1911 with the round chambered, and the thumb safety off... relying on the grip safety.
    Also, how often would you think that a person would be lowering the hammer on a 1911? Most people that I know keep it C&L constantly.
    I know I do.


    Jim
     
  15. FoMoGo

    FoMoGo Member

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    Tile setter, the comparison is extremely valid.
    The glock is not a DAO, and a glock with a chambered round is the same as a 1911 with the thumb safety off.
    When you chamber the round it draws the striker back and it is ready to fire when the trigger is pulled.
    On second thought, you ARE right in it being a non valid comparison.
    On the 1911 you have to depress the grip safety and pull the trigger, on the glock you only need to have the trigger depress to fire it... so no... a glock isnt as safe as a 1911 with the thumb safety off.
    For me the thumb safety isnt OCD, it is part of my manual of arms.
    It is a part of my draw and presentation.
    IF you disagree about what I said about the glock check here.
    http://members.cox.net/guntraining/glocks.htm
    Now, if you understand how both the glock and 1911 fully work... maybe you will see that I DID make a very smart comparison. ;)


    Jim
     
  16. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    Is checking to see if my front door is locked multiple times during the day OCD as well? Tile Setter, you don't like cocked and locked, that's fine, but don't say you are just discussing personal preferences. You've stated carrying C&L is dark ages and are trying to convince us it is wrong and unsafe. It is neither. I have yet to read multiple threads on ADs with C&L 1911s. On the other hand, you can't throw a rock without hitting an internet thread on Glocks and their ADs. Which is more safe again?
     
  17. FoMoGo

    FoMoGo Member

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    Tile setter, do you have a clue as to how a glock works?
    When the slide is pulled back, the striker is cocked. All it takes is the trigger to release the striker.
    SO even tho people want to call it DAO, it is single action. It has a lighter trigger than a true DAO, and can be tuned down further.
    Please check into this and stop making yourself look foolish.
    You only looked uninformed before, but I posted a link to explain it to you... now you look foolish.
    As for drawing and firing a 1911 having to cock the hammer as to just wiping off the safety, add in the stress of a life and death situation with someone coming in on you HARD and all the relaxed training you do goes out the window.
    You can take a 1911 with the thumb safety on and try to beat the hammer forward and you have a better chance of breaking the hammer than firing the pistol.
    Glocks are a simpler manual of arms, draw pistol... aim... pull trigger.
    They dont have that scary hammer back "look".
    They just have that aspect hidden from view.


    Jim
     
  18. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    DAO means that it is only double action, and double action is generally defined as the trigger cocking the hammer (striker) and then releasing such hammer (striker). A glock does not cock the striker with the trigger pull, the striker is cocked by racking the slide, or through recoil action of the slide after a round has been fired, so a Glock is not a DAO. A DAO is like my hammerless 340PD revolver which cannot be fired single action. A Glock is more akin to a single action, given that it's trigger does nothing but release the striker. Of course, the trigger pull is heavier than a 1911, but it is still a single action according to the classic definition of the trigger only releasing the hammer (striker).

    If I check my front door 4 or 5 times a day to ensure that it is locked, and I even check the deadbolt to make sure it is locked, am I OCD and more likely to end up with an unlocked door?

    Oh, so now we're going to get rid of all the poorly trained people when we are talking about inherent safety of guns? If we are truly making progress, shouldn't even poorly trained people be safer? And do only well trained people carry 1911s? Is that why we don't hear of ADs from these supposedly dark ages and very dangerous guns?
     
  19. Beren

    Beren Moderator Emeritus

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    My first carry pistol was a Glock 19. I understood that it had no external safety like other firearms, and that I had to carry it in a suitable holster. It generally stayed in the holster, and it never went bang unless I pulled the trigger. I never pulled the trigger except when at the range or when disassembling it, after I had cleared and rechecked it to verify that it was clear. I do that with all firearms. Check, and then recheck.

    I don't consider a 1911 that much different, except that it has two external safeties compared to the pseudo safety in the Glock trigger. (I guess it's technically a safety, but I have trouble calling it by that name.) In the hands of a competent, responsible handler, I don't consider a C&L'd 1911 any more dangerous than any other firearm.

    Going back to the original post, I feel that DA firearms are meant to be carried with the hammer down. I wouldn't carry a Bobcat cocked and locked, I don't trust the design or the ergonomics of it. But that's me, and I have a known Glock/1911 bias. :D
     
  20. FoMoGo

    FoMoGo Member

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    I didnt know that was possible... do you find yourself to be in heated arguments while alone? :neener:


    Jim
     
  21. distra

    distra Member

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    I think we are missing the point here. Some of us seem to be fear mongers much like the anti crowd. :scrutiny: Modern well maintained guns do not go bang without pulling the trigger. If the firearm is holstered in a proper holster that covers the trigger and the safety is off there is no more risk in the firearm discharging than with the safety on. Mechanical problems can happen, but let's be realistic here. There are 2 ways to safely carry a 1911, 1) cocked and locked with round in chamber, 2) condition zero (no round in chamber hammer down) there is no other safe option. Carrying a 1911 with a round in the chamber and hammer down without a strap over the hammer could be inviting more danger than loaded, cocked and safety off. A Glock really is like carring a 1911 half cocked with no safety. I still carry my Glock's with one in the pipe, there is no other way in my book. If you have any doubts, run a Tueler drill or two and see if you can get a round off before the runner crosses the line without a round in the tube. This is one reason I like my wife's HK USP, you can carry it cocked and locked or round in the chamber safety on or round in the chamber safety off. It gives her flexibility of carry methods while she prefers the DA mode with safety on, she also likes the consistant SA pull.

    If you seem to keep flipping off the safety, you probably need to change your method of carry.
     
  22. FoMoGo

    FoMoGo Member

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    I honestly feel that most people dont have a real use for the oversized ambi safeties that are all the rage now.
    The larger safety IS easier to hit for swiping it off, altho the GI safety was never an issue for me.
    However it is also easier to have something other than your thumb deactivate it.
    When shooting lefty, I have no issues wiping the safety with my trigger finger.
    If I were to only shoot left, I would see about making the pistol a left hand safety only.


    Jim
     
  23. Superlite27

    Superlite27 Member

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    Exactly. If you take into account the law of probability, I should think that cocking, then decocking, then cocking, then decocking - ad infinitum would eventually lead to a higher probability of "BANG!" Whoops!

    I find no point in cocking your weapon, only to reverse this decision, then reversing this decision and cocking it again, then, subsequently reversing the reversed decision and decocking......

    COCK IT ONCE, PUT IT ON SAFE ONCE, THEN KEEP IT THERE UNTIL YOU WANT IT TO GO BANG.

    My 1911 has a perfectly functional decocker. It's called a trigger.

    If I should feel the need to remove the bullets from my 1911 in order to clean it, I simply drop the magazine, drop the safety, and rack the slide.

    For those of you who find taking the safety off to rack the slide not to your liking, I submit that it feels safer to me than pushing a lever that drops the hammer on a chambered round and TRUSTING that this be-all/end-all internal decocker mechanism will do its job and stop the hammer from striking the firing pin.
     
  24. jgooderh

    jgooderh Member

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    Condition 2

    Hi All;

    I know that the whole "Condition X" thing is/was created for the 1911 world. It's just he best for describing the state of a firearm.

    In my original post, I had stated that I carry it in "Condition 2". Round in the chamber with the hammer down but with the safety on so I guess it's kinda condition 2.5 or something:D. I use the safety as another layer of well... safety. The DA pull on this Bobcat (haven't shot anyone else's) is relatively smooth, kinda short, and a bit of weight, but I still like to have the safety.

    I don't have to drop the hammer on a live round w/the tip up barrel so it's a bit safer to manage too.

    I don't carry Robert the cat cocked and locked.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  25. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    posted by superlight27
    OP stated
    which IIRC on a bobcat it is possible to carry hammer down safety on.
    with the safety off in this situation it still leaves the safety of a long heavy DA pull.
    actually racking the slide on a glock mostly cocks the striker the trigger pulls it back just a little before it releases it.which by definition makes it DAO the trigger both cocks and releases the striker.
    however in practice it is more like a SA and IMHO less safe than a 1911 with the thumb safety off.
    BTW JMB originally designed the 1911 W/O a thumb safety,the Army made him do it.

    I only pocket carry true DAO either revolvers or Seecamp 32/AMT Backup45
     
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