Accuracy of BP revolvers (group sizes)

[BigBoomD]

If there is a thread on this, please direct me to it, I have not found one as of yet.

I am trying to determine how accurate(or I should really say precise) a BP revolver can be in somewhat skilled hands? I see target groups often without distances, or if its from a bench, 1 hand, 2 hand, etc. and don't have a good feeling for how I and my gun are shooting comparatively. I am trying to shoot better and also get my gun to shoot better, and have improved things significantly on both counts, but want to know how others do, to kind of know where I sit. Also people show targets sometimes, but I am not clear on how many inches across the rings are for some of the targets people use, so not sure what the group size is.

My local range is 7 yards or 25. Interested in 25yards as 7 just seems a bit silly to me. Also, what kind of group sizes do the competitive shooters get? Anyone have any links to photos or videos of them?

 

[carbine85]

I'm not that great with a handgun but I can get 4" groups or less with a Uberti 1860 and 6" or less with my Pietta Sheriff. Both are rested.
I'm getting better but my handgun shooting has never been all that great.

 

[Mn Fats]

I wouldn't read too much into to it. What a pro/skilled, dedicated guy can do with a bp revolver can be very impressive. Although the sights were never meant for much of target accuracy. Me, with my repro 1851 navy, I can keep all six on a playing card at 25 yards. Benched mind you. One handed, im happy to keep all six on a pie plate at 25 yards. This is done with an 1851, bead sight, tiny notch grove. Im not sure what your shooting but id say this i decent general standard for bp revolvers. Some are better, some worse. Like any gun, it all has to do with how much time, dedication you put into practicing.

 

[Crawdad1]

Here is a few videos showing the accuracy of percussion revolvers,







Trouble with these is the primitive sights but I found they can be as accurate as any modern revolvers.at 25 yards. At longer distances I don't know. My Uberti Colt at 25 yards, barrel rested.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Offhand (standing on you hind legs, using one hand) a top-flight shooter will shoot a 3-inch group or less at 25 yards. Cut that to about 2 inches, and you're within reach of a World Championship.

 

[rodwha]

I use a two handed hold shooting offhand and typically get 3-3.5" groups at 15 yds with my ROA and 3.5-4" groups with my Remington NMA. Sometimes I get a flier that adds another 1/2 to 1" or so.

I'm no real pistolero but I'm somewhat happy with my results for what they are. I've been wanting to use my Ruger as a primary hunting weapon but I want to improve my results in order to shoot to 25 yds or so. But I also figure I'd likely have a rest (most hunting here is from a blind).

 

[J-Bar]

I have not seen any recent posts from him, but THR had a member, [email protected], first name Phil, who shot at Friendship for many years. Phil, his wife, and his daughter were repeat champions with muzzleloading revolvers and single shots.

I searched for his threads on THR and there are a bunch, but this one shows some of their competition targets. Remember this is classic Bullseye competition with muzzleloading handguns; standing, shooting one-handed unsupported.

Phil posts photos in post #15 in this thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/wanted-to-see-for-myself.739626/

And in post #12 in this thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...oting-technique-question.741137/#post-9315393

 

[BigBoomD]

Wow this is really great stuff and the videos and various links are really really helpful. Keep it coming! I have lots of room for improvement that is for sure. I am shooting a Pietta fake 44 brass navy, so the cheap of the cheap but have done quite a bit of work to it which has improved its accuracy quite a bit. What would be really ideal would be to have someone who can shoot so well shoot with my revolver to see how accurate the gun itself really is. Even from a bench I don't think I am removing myself adequitly from the situation enough to see what the gun is actually doing. I'd like to know how much is down to the gun, and how much is down to me so I can just worry about the me part of it. You all have included lots of good links for things to address the human side of it which is great!

 

[rodwha]

From what I've seen is that the most accurate loads tend to run around 18-25 grns of powder, which is about all your brass frame can handle with a ball, and likely less with a conical as it increases the pressure and recoil which no doubt batters the frame.

 

[BigBoomD]

Crawdad1, I had not seen the image of your target previously as it didn't show on my phone when viewing this thread, that is impressive as well, any hints for me when shooting from the bench? I've read varying things about just resting your hands, or resting the barrel, or both, and would be super happy to get groups like you from the bench first, and then work on trying to approach that standing up. (the targets in the links for Phil and his family are truly extraordinary) rodwha, thanks for the info on loads as well, I have been doing some experimentation and for now settled on 23 grains mostly because I didn't want to go about the seeming 25 grain limit for brassers, and anything below 20 just felt a bit...well, wimpy. once I get my bench technique down, I'll play around with this a bit more as well as filler vs no filler, wad vs biscuit vs lube over ball, etc. so far my biggest "discovery" is that Goex 3f is much much more consistent than pyrodex.

 

[Crawdad1]

Thanks Bigboom, I had her barrel resting in sandbags pretty secure with a two hand hold. My groups off handed are nowhere close to that size.

I cut a 'V' notch in my hammer to adjust for elevation as Colts and Colt repro also seem to shoot high and left. I also cut the notch a hair to the right to adjust for this. I'll post pictures of a Pietta Colt 1860 repro I just got back from Hoof Hearted who defarbed and reblued it.

http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/

 

[Crawdad1]

I'm sorry I have to relate this but I have sad news guys, Phil Piburn has passed away.

 

[J-Bar]

I'm sorry I have to relate this but I have sad news guys, Phil Piburn has passed away.

I suspected as much, but did not know for sure. If it was announced previously, I missed it.

I never met Phil in person, just knew him from his posts in this forum. But obviously he was an accomplished and recognized shooter.

My condolences to his family.

 

[Dellbert]

You can get good groups in steel frame guns as well with 20 to 25 grs of powder. It's when people start to put as much powder in them as they can you run into trouble. Then say it's the gun. Don't take my word for it, try it for yourself. NOT in a brass frame though..

 

[Crawdad1]

I suspected as much, but did not know for sure. If it was announced previously, I missed it.

I never met Phil in person, just knew him from his posts in this forum. But obviously he was an accomplished and recognized shooter.

My condolences to his family.

He was always saying how tired he was after a shoot. I had a feeling that something was very wrong with his health. A great guy, friendly and very knowledgeable, May he Rest in Peace.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

25 yards is 75 feet, and I think that for the era they were used as SD weapons..., 25 yards was considered a pretty far shot, no? The famous Hickok-Tutt shootout in 1865 was at 75 yards, but Wild Bill steadied his revolver with his opposite forearm (sorta like holding the handgun and folding the arms at the same time) to make the shot. Aren't a lot of handgun fights at 7 yards or less, even today? I should think that at 50 feet, (the indoor bullseye distance) if your cap-n-ball shoots well from a rest, then you have a good one. Curiously, I bought three of the cheapest cap-n-ball revolvers from Pietta a while back. So called "Brass framed, Confederate Navy .44's"..., They shoot quite well at 25 feet.

LD

 

[rodwha]

You can get good groups in steel frame guns as well with 20 to 25 grs of powder. It's when people start to put as much powder in them as they can you run into trouble. Then say it's the gun. Don't take my word for it, try it for yourself. NOT in a brass frame though..

With my ROA and Remington NMA I started with 25 grns of 3F (I need them to be useful for hunting) and found that both were more accurate with greater charges. My Ruger prefers 35 grns and the Remington prefers 30. And this is with just about any projectile I've tried.

 

[Crawdad1]

BigBoom are you going to compete? And if you are at what level and in what association?

Hunt?

I don't compete with a revolver because I cannot shoot good enough at that level however I do hunt with a revolver and that is the reason I bought a Pietta 1860. I wanted a revolver that could shoot cowboy action ammo as well as it shoots round ball. I just wasn't confident enough in my Uberti 1860 to deliver an accurate shot using cartridges at anything approaching the minimum acceptable deer hunting ranges.

Here is Hickok, a great shot, shooting his Remington. I don't think he realized how good one of these black powder revolvers can shoot.

 

[rodwha]

"I just wasn't confident enough in my Uberti 1860 to deliver an accurate shot using cartridges at anything approaching the minimum acceptable deer hunting ranges."

What do you deem acceptable? For myself I want within 4" at 25 yds. I get a little under that at 15 yds but figured I'd likely have a rest while hunting. That would also reduce the fliers and any additional spread. I've to work on that and find a range with a 25 yd lane.

 

[Crawdad1]

There was just too many fliers from that Uberti even with the 180 grain 45 Schofields. This Pietta, in my opinion, is a lot stronger with its correctly sized arbor. I use 25 yards as the minimum for deer hunting ranges as any range shorter it seems you can just make too many mistakes with a deer within that range especially when you consider a deer's formidable nose and ears.

 

[rodwha]

Do you know the twist rate?

How does it do with a ball?

 

[rodwha]

Have you tried various conicals/boolits with the cap n ball cylinder?

What powder(s) have you used?

For hunting would you be hunting from a blind with a potential rest? If so a stand or box type?

Have you tried squeezing the trigger as you cock the hammer?

Do you have any idea what your Schofield ammo produces? A lot of that Cowboy load stuff is rather weak. I know of only a few people who load their conversion cylinders with standard load .45 Colt stuff and see no reason why it shouldn't handle it. But then I didn't create them... It just seems these are built no less strong then a modern cap n ball cylinder which can certainly handle a lot more than cowboy load stuff.

 

[Crawdad1]

See target above as it does pretty good with a ball at 25 yards. It just doesn't shoot very well with the cartridges. That's why I went with a Pietta.

The 45 Schofield produces over 300 ft./lbs. of energy with a 230 grain bullet.

No blind just standing by a tree in the snow, usually, or rain, normally. That's why I hunt for deer with the cartridges, the weather can get real tricky that time of year.

 

[Crawdad1]

BigBoom here is another target shot with my 1860 repro (Uberti) at 25 yards. I should have put a quarter or something next to the target to designate the size of the bulls eye. It started to group but I believe I used either 451 or 454 round ball, I can't remember. The target I posted above is definitely 454 round ball.

 

[rodwha]

See target above, guy. It does pretty good with a ball at 25 yards. It just doesn't shoot very well with the cartridges. That's why I went with a Pietta.

The 45 Schofield produces over 300 ft./lbs. of energy with a 230 grain bullet. That's enough.

No blind just standing by a tree in the snow, usually, or rain, normally. That's why I hunt for deer with the cartridges, the weather can get real tricky that time of year.

Ah. I see. I was going to send you some of my 195 grn WFN boolits that are just .460" long figuring it may well be the twist. But these don't have a crimp groove.

Those sound fairly good. That's about what I figure I'm getting from my Remington NMA with 30 grns of Olde E and those 195 grn boolits (about standard .45 ACP performance).

Do you know what your twist rate is? Both of my
Pistols have 1:16" twists and do equally well with everything I've tried.

With rain being a common concern have you tried those things you put over the caps? The other end should be just fine...