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Accuracy

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by svtruth, Jan 16, 2011.

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  1. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    They're right -- accuracy is potential. It is the sum of the weapon, the ammunition, and the shooter.

    As an old gunnery instructor of mine was wont to say, "Gunnery is an exercise in probabilities." In other words, a given system (gun, ammunition and shooter) can place their shots in a circle of a certain diameter at a given range. The more accurate the system, the smaller the circle.

    Hitting what you aim at is a matter of centering the circle on the point of aim.
     
  2. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    Accuracy and precision are in reference to the capabilities of the tool. If a scale always measures 200 lbs more than the person's actual weight, it's not accurate. Your correction for the inadequacies of the tool doesn't mean the tool doesn't have them.
     
  3. mmitch

    mmitch Member

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    And, after a lifetime of english, I suppose I'm just as perturbed that OP dangles participles.
    But, I think there are bigger concerns in life, for both of us!

    Mike
     
  4. bogie

    bogie Member

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    A large number of people believe that because they always get their deer that they've got a VERY accurate rifle.

    What they have is patience, a good hunting skill set, and a rifle that'll group inside 4" - does it "hit the fur?" Then it's good enough for most hunters.

    John, I've had my photo in PS...
     
  5. Sauer Grapes

    Sauer Grapes Member

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    I have a headache.....:banghead:
     
  6. sig220mw

    sig220mw Member

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    It does seem trivial but then we all have our pet peeves. The clip vs magazine thing is one I've given up on. Same with the double action and double action only. Our language seems to be fungible which is a fancy word for "able to be changed or always changing. I hear people always saying things like "I'm going to totally do that". It is a statement that makes absolutely no sense to me but I do know what it means.

    I guess when I was a bit younger some of the things I said drove the older crowd of that day crazy too.
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    I'll have to disagree, at least in theory.

    If a rifle places five consecutive shots into a ragged hole from a machine rest...regardless of where on the paper relative to the center...that rifle/load combo is inarguably accurate.

    A top sniper is said to be precise...as in able to select and hit a (precise) target with the one shot that he'll get during that engagement. If said sniper happens to hit the shirt button that he's aiming at, the shooter is either lucky or the rifle is capable of precision accuracy at the range that it was fired...and so is the shooter. If the sniper can consistently hit the shirt button that he's aiming at...over and over, on demand...then the combo of rifle, ammunition, and shooter is accurate.

    I suppose that an argument such as this could go on and on, though...
     
  8. GreenTriumph

    GreenTriumph Member

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    Statistical Definitions

    Ok. I can't help it. I have to put in my 2 cents. I teach at Ohio State and I teach the engineering statistics class. (I'm also the only prof. that shoots but that's another story). I use the following slide to show the difference between precision and accuracy.

    Most people understand precision, in that all of the shots are close together. Three out of the four charts make sense but accuracy with low precision is the one that doesn't make sense to the gun community. Accuracy is defined as the average or mean of the data points. This doesn't make sense from a shooting point as there can be no particular shot at the mean. I can show a set of shots that have a mean at the bulls-eye without any bullet hitting there.

    PrecisionandAccuracy.gif
     
  9. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    I understand the discussion we're having about the difference between accuracy and precision. I understand the difference between the two terms. However, what's the point? If my rifle will consistently shoot .25 MOA at 100 yards, I don't care what that's called. I can always move the scope to hit the point on the target I want. I guess what I'm saying is isn't this just semantics?
     
  10. jcwit

    jcwit member

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    Try it ona different bull 25 times 1 shot per bull, see if you have a 10 X each time.
     
  11. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Distance and size of the bull?

    It's all relative.

    I'm with Larry. I don't see any real point to the discussion...but as long as it doesn't turn into one of "those" things, it's all good.
     
  12. pitsmile

    pitsmile Member

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    I think it depends on the setting. In combat, if I'm the spotter, whether I tell the shooter to hit the target accurately or precisely doesn't make a difference at all. The end result is eliminating the target. However, if I am doing a scientific experiment it can make a difference. If I say precisely shoot the target in its right eye 10 times, and you hit his left 3/10, you accurately hit the target but you did not precisely hit the target.
     
  13. svtruth

    svtruth Member

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    Thanks All

    It wasn't a troll, honestly.
    But, it was educational.
    Now I'll have to find out what a participle is.
     
  14. jcwit

    jcwit member

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    Sorry about that, .22 rimfire nothing less than 50 yds, bull .400, X ring a dot.

    Center fire nothing less than 100 yds, I shoot at 1 inch round sticker with 1/4 inch diamond in center.

    Reason I don't shoot at greater distance is the range I belong to only goes to 150 yds.

    Go for it.
     
  15. henschman

    henschman Member

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    The word "accurate" can variously mean freedom from mistakes, without error or defect, near to the true value, or conformity to the truth, or a rule, or a model.

    In the context of shooting, it can be used a couple different ways... if you say "this is an accurate gun," you are referring to the angle of the "cone of dispersion" within which it fires bullets due to it's design.

    If you say "that was an accurate shot," you are referring to how close to the target the bullet hit.

    Some of you are dogmatically insisting that this word can only be used properly in one context. Like with most english adjectives, it can be used in a variety of ways to describe a variety of things.

    The statement that got the OP's hackles up wasn't about accuracy vs. precision; it was about accuracy being consistency. There is some truth to that statement... an accurate rifle consistently shoots bullets in the same place. An accurate shooter consistently hits his target.

    And as for whether the picture posted in this thread constitutes accuracy and/or consistency, I would say that it depends on what distance at which it was shot! That's one of MY pet peeves about shooting vernacular... lots of folks like to say "this rifle will shoot 1 inch groups all day long." I always think, at what friggin distance? I have a POS Romanian AK that will shoot 1 inch groups all day long, at 25m. I know most people are referring to 100 yards, but it is really inaccurate and inprecise not to say the distance. Another thing that gets me is when people say something that was said in this thread, like "All I need to do is adjust my scope a half inch up." You are not adjusting your scope a half inch up. Rifle sights do not adjust in linear distance; they adjust in angle. It would be more precise to say that you adjusted your 100 yard group a half inch up on the target (which all Riflemen would take to mean that you adjusted your scope 1/2 minute of angle up from the boreline of the rifle).

    And if you have no idea what I'm talking about with any of this, come to an Appleseed and you will be enlightened!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
  16. purist

    purist Member

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    this is a black and white issue

    Sorry ladies and gentleman but accuracy and precision cannot be used interchangeably (and be correct).

    A gun can only be precise. A shooter however can be accurate and precise.

    Scientists need to know the difference. Laymen not so much.

    It seems that some people don't care and will use the terms interchangeably- that's ok too - but it doesn't make them accurate (meaning correct, not in error).

    Hope this helps.
     
  17. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    From Merriam-Webster:


    Hmmm . . . this doesn't support the claim that accuracy and precision are two different things.
     
  18. purist

    purist Member

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    Ladies and Gentlemen


    Say you buy prescription of 100 - 10 mg tablets.

    1) would you rather that all the tablets are actually 10 mg -plus or minus .02 mg (100% potent - but not too precise)? :)

    Or

    2) would you be just as happy if all the tablets were the same potency .02 mg - plus or minus 0 .000 mg (extremely precise BUT 1/500th of the required potency)?:eek:
     
  19. jcwit

    jcwit member

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    I break some of my perscriptions in half, who know how accurate I am or precise for that matter. Not a good analogy in my opinion.
     
  20. purist

    purist Member

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    ??

    This is a question -not an analogy.

    What's your answer??
     
  21. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    It is an analogy, else why phrase it like this:
     
  22. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Merriam-Webster also says a clip is a magazine, and a bullet is a cartridge. This is not the case.
     
  23. bogie

    bogie Member

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    If you don't have consistency, you don't get accuracy, precision, or the cold frosty beer after you whup up on your buddies at the range... You're the one buying the beer.

    A rifle capable of shooting a 2" group -might- hit the bullseye. and sometimes, all the shots accidentally go into a smaller group. Those groups tend to go into Bubba's wallet, whereupon he announces to anyone who'll listen that he can do that all day long with his trusty boomstick...

    A rifle capable of shooting an 0.25" group -will- hit the bullseye if the shooter chooses to adjust the scope to do so, and doesn't commit operator error.

    How many other folks have shot rifles capable of sub-0.25MOA consistency?

    (Notice that in that last question, I didn't say "accuracy" or "precision." It's about consistency.)

    Aim small, miss small.
     
  24. purist

    purist Member

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    You can achieve accuracy with one shot.

    You can't achieve precision with one shot. Or one of anything for that matter

    Sorry, you're right - it's two questions- and remind me not to buy any prescriptions from you.:neener:

    Ps. accuracy can be luck, precision not so much.
     
  25. jcwit

    jcwit member

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    No problem as I do not sell meds.

    Correct!
     
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