Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by Apuesto, Oct 7, 2019.
Can you please share your load data?
Sure, assuming they're available. European guns are not as widespread in the US, so very few (if any) companies bother making grips for them. Add to that, if the suppliers do stock parts, the markups are criminal.
A supplier for a well known European revolver (which I will not name) sells a basic grip for $150. I found the exact same grip, in the manufacturers packaging, for $14.95 at Numrich.
I won a match against some custom guns with a VP9. I have no idea how accurate it can be because I can't shoot that well.
What kind of match? Range, target, stance.
While I dislike the cliché "more accurate than I am" the precision target shooter needs a gun (+ammo) accurate enough that if he drops a point, he knows it is his fault and not the equipment.
I'm not sure whether I dislike it or not, as I don't understand what it is supposed to mean. Somebody whose a better shot than me will shoot better than me with any gun regardless of the mechanical accuracy of said gun, and no matter how bad a shot I may be, I will shoot better the more accurate the gun.
If you won, you shoot pretty well.
What kind of match was it?
please DO NOT misquote me!!!
I had explicitly answered to the claim that an out-of-box (!!) CZ (!!) will shoot one-inch-groups at 50 yards.
Re-read my message and please adjust your answer to what I really said.
Thanks in advance for doing so!
Sigh, yes, I guess I know about that "wrong side of the Atlantic"-problem...just the mirrored version.
I actually think that video is highly relevant to this discussion, even if it was presented in a way that seemed (perhaps not fxvr5's intent) to be a "rebuttal" to your remark. There, you have a custom-built, top-tier Bianchi cup gun... perhaps the semi-auto "flavor" most focused on wringing 50 yard accuracy out of service-caliber cartridges and built for (mostly) two-handed use (as distinct from the bullseye and olympic pistols which are ergonomically set up for one-handed use). And there, from a bench, it is just able to make the accuracy criterion set out by the OP.
In short, that's what a gun that can do 1" at 50 yards looks like. It sure didn't cost $1,500, and it didn't come OOB that way from any maker selling through Davidson's or Bud's. As I wrote above, I think 1" at 50 yards is about the absolute maximum level of accuracy that it's even possible to achieve with a tilting barrel system, and only where the gun is built and fitted to insanely close tolerances and the ammo is just right.
Asking for a 1"-at-50 pistol for club shoots is like asking for a Formula 1 car for a weekend autocross meet. If you have the means, then go for it. But that's not a trivial performance spec.
Federal primers, Winchester brass, Sierra 115 JHP, 1.140 OAL and a medium charge of Power Pistol.
Yes, it is relevant...but mostly to show that the tech specs Apuesto gave describe a pistol tha is far from being within the first given financial specs.
(Asides from this it´s always nice to know what can be done, but we all should be aware that this gun is maxed and tricked out to the limit...including the ammo, I take for granted.)
Absolutely, that's what I was trying to say in my post https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/accurate-semi.857317/page-2#post-11257197
You're right. My mistake. Sorry!
It was a fun match for a group of Combat Veterans. Guys showing off their guns and skills. This is part an annual motorcycle ride event. I have had some good training but I can't say that I am that good. Winning matches is more than skill and good guns.
In any case, I could not shoot a 1 inch group at 50 yards with my VP9 if it was that accurate.
This is my load data now!
What dies do you use? I've always been wary of 9mm given it's tapered case.
I much appreciated the videos. They made me smile. I enjoy seeing machines that work as well as those two did.
They also put some national records in to a better perspective for me. One B.D. Harmon set an enduring record back in 1982: 20 shots slow fire (one hand unsupported) with a score of 200 11X. .45 Caliber.
No, not one inch shooting but then he was not a machine rest. I wonder what he could have done with one of those pistols.
I don't know what he uses, but my Dillon has Dillon, Hornady, and Lee dies.
But in my single stage days, I used RCBS.
The case taper is not a problem.
You mentioned an occasional possible PPC match.
PPC rules are specific and limiting in what is permissible.
The Olympic style guns such as the Pardini are excluded.
Secondarily, ammunition too, is a factor.
I hold one PPC record outright, and co-hold several more.
I used, and still shoot several now discontinued S&W Performance Center PPC’9’s. I used a load remarkably like the one mentioned earlier. Sierra 115gr JHP, Federal spp, Federal nickle brass (from HydroShock), and Bullseye, WST, HP38, or more recently PowerPistol or BE86. A former moderator for this forum called me “full of green garden fertilizer“ when I claimed (but later proved) accuracy levels twice as large as you seek. A lightly used PPC-9 will fetch 3,000-5,000 on gunbroker.
The level of accuracy you desire will be VERY expensive and QUITE SHORT LIVED. A revered long-time competitor in PPC who was something of a mentor to me also shot bullseye on the Springfield Armory factory team. He considered 5,000rds to be the upper limit for a match 1911 before it needed rework.
He set several long standing records and he had a “stash” of barrels cut for him by Jimmy Clark. They were cut from Douglas match blanks, with a 1/12” twist. He exclusively used Speer GoldDots. He had a milling machine and lathe and fitted his own barrels. From a Ransom rest, his guns would approach the accuracy you seek... He built his own and if sold, would fetch upwards of $4,000.
Only a few factory 9mm loads are capable. The 115gr Federal 9B Classic is one. Others are the Speer GoldDots, Federal Hydrashocks, and Atlanta Arms (what the AMU teams use), as well as BlackHills, and HSM. None are inexpensive!
I’d start with a Springfield Range Master or Kimber Match II. Customize from there as need arises. Either of those will get you up to Expert or Master class. I shot a national record in 2008 in Match 8, but have never shot a High Master score in a 1500 with a semi-auto. (1485-1500).
Good luck with your journey. It’s the adventure, not the destination, that matters.
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