ACP vs GAP?

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Well lets see, similar performance, with a smaller case and higher pressure, the pistol is smaller and the chamber walls are thinner in a Gap pistol, but the pressure is higher its loaded to .45 acp +p pressure. That also means the round is more sensitive to setback which may raise the pressures to KABOOM level.

.45 GAP also can't take the heavier rounds some like to use like the 230, and 255 grainers 200 grains is max.

The pistols will wear out faster and have harsher recoil than a .45 acp pistol.

No thanks, I will stick to .45 acp.

I predict that when these police departments start issueing the pistol we will start to hear bout the KABOOMS just like with the .40 S&W. Officer friendly will rechamber the same round a few times setting the bullet back, and then raising the pressure beyond what the pistol can handle. This will be more of a problem than with the .40 S&W because the bullets are not as long and will have less case tension holding them.


This also means that I will have more crap to throw away in the range brass I buy.
 
Well if nothing else you will be able to cut down your .45acp cases that split or crack at the mouth and get to use them in your .45GAP. Seems to me a cartridge that will generate a lot of new sales for gun manufacturers at the expense of taxpayers. I will stick to the .45acp. Lower pressures and I have the other two cartridges ie 9MM and .40cal covered already.

Take Care

Bob
 
http://www.handgunsmag.com/gap_1118/

Winchester makes 230 g GAP ammo.

I bought a .260 rem barrel for my savage a while back. There's no reason for that cartridge either (it's so similar to a .257 Improved or a .25-06 or a 7mm-08 or a...)

The big drawback to the 45 GAP is that it has no parent case you can use for brass if it fails to catch on. I also wonder at the feeding reliability of such a short fat case.

I still like the idea, though. I don't own a pistol in either, but if I were buying a polymer pistol I'd give the GAP serious consideration. I don't like any of the plastic ACPs that I've seen so far except for the P345.
 
To be fair, saying the GAP is equivalent to a ACP isn't strictly accurate. A +P loaded GAP is roughly equal to a NORMAL PRESSURE ACP. If you load a ACP to +P pressure, it is more powerful than a GAP.

Another one that knows nothing about .45 GAP...

First and foremost, there is no .45GAP +P. The .45GAP is loaded to it's maximum pressure in it's normal form. The .45GAP's maximum average pressure is about 23,000 PSI, or equal to a .45ACP +P.

So, you're completely wrong. Your statement should be a +P ACP is roughly equal to a NORMAL PRESSURE GAP.

So, pressure wise, a normal ACP is weaker than a normal pressure GAP.

Well lets see, similar performance, with a smaller case and higher pressure, the pistol is smaller and the chamber walls are thinner in a Gap pistol, but the pressure is higher its loaded to .45 acp +p pressure. That also means the round is more sensitive to setback which may raise the pressures to KABOOM level.

.45 GAP also can't take the heavier rounds some like to use like the 230, and 255 grainers 200 grains is max.

The pistols will wear out faster and have harsher recoil than a .45 acp pistol.

Another one...

You can get 230 grain .45GAP from numberous manufacturers. True you can't get 255, but the max is NOT 200 gr. As for the rest of your statements I could go on all day. Considering that there are really only 2 or 3 GAP models out, could you please tell me which one uses thinner chamber walls? And please link to something concrete, not your opinion which seems to be skewing the truth.

The pistols will wear out faster and have a harsher recoil? Again, which models are you shooting in which to compare?

Well if nothing else you will be able to cut down your .45acp cases that split or crack at the mouth and get to use them in your .45GAP.

Would you people please read up. There are so many differences between the ACP and GAP cases that you simply can't cut down the case. The extractor angle is different (by 10 degrees) and it uses a small primer where the ACP uses a large primer. Cutting down an ACP case will more than likely cause an overpressure.

I can go on all day on this stuff. I love it when people bring up a .45 GAP thread because you can instantly find which members of THR talk out their butts because their head doesn't know any better.

Somebody already posted a good link to GAP information. Please read it before you post your ignorant responces. Maybe the GAP would become a little more popular if you people actually knew what you were talking about.
 
Gap Sucks... IMO But I was told the opposite of what XDkingslayer was saying by my local gunsmith. GAP is weaker all the way around.
 
Why 45GAP doesn't interest me

(That's *me* *me* *me*! :))

There are jillions of calibers out there, and all of them were created for some reason -- that is, "it seemed like a good idea at the time."

.45GAP's "good idea" isn't a hard one to comprehend, and everyone knows it -- ballistics of a .45ACP in a case short enough to make feasible smaller grips than those found on (up to then) .45 pistols. ("Good idea" #2 of course, is the thought on the part of Glock and Speer that they'd benefit if the cartridge caught on.)

So, I find nothing wrong with the cartridge conceptually -- and I'd be content with it as my main one, in fact, if not for two things:

a) Common ammo is good. It's a bit like why I have an iPod despite some objections (proprietary battery, opaque file organization*); the network effects are tremendous. Similarly with ammo; Yes, you can reload (most) cartridges, but by sticking with an ammo type that's 102 years old and still well-liked, I think that I've upped my odds I'll have ready, affordable access to that same ammo in 20 or 50 years. That way I don't need to pass on to my (hypothetical) grandchildren "This 20th century gun and this chest full of reloading equipment and hoarded ingredients."

Also, though I intend to start soon, I don't yet do *any* reloading -- just saving brass, so far! Even with the idea of keeping to commonly available ammo types, it's still easy to fall into collecting quite a few kinds; so far, I'm holding at .22, 9mm, 12ga and .45, but that's already 4, and a .223 is sounding good. (And one day a 50BMG?) But each of these is distinct enough from the others, and at least slightly cheaper than the next-nearest-most-similar cousin, that I'm not tempted to expand into 9mm Makarov, or .357sig, or 17HMR, or or or ... guns are an expensive hobby, so I have to budget according to money I can rationalize "doesn't get spent on beer or cigarettes" -- not that it would anyhow, in my case.

(Vicissitudes of fortune:If 45GAP of today had been named 45ACP in 1905, and one metric planetful of guns had been designed around it, then great, it would probably be my pick. When the more flexible but longer 45EXT (Extended -- looks and tastes just like today's 45ACP ;)) was introduced in this alternate reality, I'd most likely shun it on the basis that the differences aren't enough to give up a smaller grip and easy ammo availability.)

b) Though my hands are small for an adult man's (genetic curse), .45 pistols I've handled just haven't been that bad. A Desert Eagle in 50AE, *that's* too big ;). It says something about the XD45 that everyone's naming it as the reason that .45GAP suddenly seems like less of a breakthrough than advertised, because 14 rounds fit into a very handleable package. I'll chime in with another vote on that idea right now! (However, it's a bit slippery, since the GAP's size means that makers can just create an even *smaller* pistol equivalent; Springfield themselves have done this with the EMP, smaller than the .45ACP chambered Micro 1911, and, since they're supporting the GAP cartridge in one line, I'd be surprised if they didn't soon come out with an XD45GAP.) Upshot is that I agree with the refrain that the .45GAP is a "solution for a problem that doesn't exist" -- for me :) For folks with even smaller hands than me, though, I get it, and applaud. Just don't want it for myself.

EDIT: As XDKingslayer points out, there *is* an XD in .45GAP, which I had wiped from my gloriously wrinkle-free brain. Somewhere, I have the poster that shows it, too. D'oh! Maybe I'd forgotten it because I haven't seen one for sale in the past 18 months ;)

timothy

* It's off topic in this forum except as a passing mention, so I don't get deeply into it, but here's how I resolved one of my objections to the iPod: http://tinyurl.com/ybo5bw
 
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Gap Sucks... IMO But I was told the opposite of what XDkingslayer was saying by my local gunsmith. GAP is weaker all the way around.

And being a gunsmith doesn't make him any less an idiot. You can see a dozen people in this thread that don't know squat about that round, you think the title "Gunsmith" makes him any better?

I'd be surprised if they didn't soon come out with an XD45GAP.)

They've had one out for at least 2 years now. I've had mine for a year. They created it before the ACP XD.

D*** xdkingslayer. Although I agree.

I know I'm harsh, but each and every one of them deserve it, and more. How can you possibly contribute to someone's decision if you don't know a freakin thing about it? And to make it worse you have someone relying on a gunsmith's word simply because he's a gun smith. God forbid they read a link or two, we'll just believe the gunsmith because he knows everything by default.

This is exactly why all these rounds we debate about which is next to die, are in line to die. Most of them are great performers, it's just that ignorance is bliss and we'd rather not know anything new or different.
 
I should have remembered / realized (or at least checked!) about the 45GAP in XD; I blanked on that. My point on it doesn't change, but I'm happy for the correction!

yhtomit, I apologize, I made it seem like I was lumping you in with the other .45GAP "experts". That wasn't my intention. I should have answered you with a seperate post.

Yours was an honest mistake not one coming from ignorance and prejudice.
 
Seems to me a cartridge that will generate a lot of new sales for gun manufacturers at the expense of taxpayers.

Mr. Bank, it won't cost the taxpayers anymore than the same guns in current chamberings. LE Agencies trade old pistols and update to new ones on a regular interval. Even if the new pistol is exactly the same as the old one they update on a regular basis. Old magazines are also frequently traded in. A caliber change just means a different caliber for the new guns they're already getting.

Then taxpayers like myself who like firearms will get a good deal on a used pistol when they go thru CDNN or one of the other brokers and buy the guns that were traded in. :evil:
 
there is still no excuse not to go with .45ACP if you are considering a bigbore semi-auto handgun.
I agree with that. It seems to me the GAP allows the overall length of a gun to be shorter but not narrower, all other things being equal. The Standard G39 in .45 GAP (6+1rds) is 6.25 in x 4.17, about the same size as the Springfield XD9802 in .40 S&W (9+1 Rds). The Kimber Ultra Carry II in .45 ACP (7+1 Rds.) is slightly larger at 6.8 in x 4.75. Para Ordnance Carry LDA in .45 ACP (6+1 Rds) is 6.5 in x 4.75 and double stack single action Warthog in .45 ACP (10+1 Rds.). Not much difference in size or power among the bunch. Thick or thin is the main distinction. No advantage to .45 GAP other than free publicity coming from the "G" the way "C" might have boosted Colt.

$0.02
 
The G.A.P round seems completely useless to me. Of all the modern rounds, I would have to say that this is one that I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in owning, ( even if it was free :neener: ).
 
Maybe the GAP would become a little more popular if you people actually knew what you were talking about.
It does seem that there are a good number of uninformed people who are determined to share their lack of knowledge on this particular topic.

Surprising since this is such a simple subject and the information is so readily available.

The .45GAP lets you put standard pressure .45ACP performance into a 9mm/.40 sized frame because it has a shorter case length than the .45ACP.

.45GAP velocity is the same as (or very slightly higher than) .45ACP standard pressure and this is achieved by loading the .45GAP to slightly higher pressures than the .45ACP. .45GAP pressures are identical to .45ACP +P pressures.

There is no .45GAP +P, and .45ACP +P offers higher velocity than the GAP is capable of.

Basically, the .45GAP is to the .45ACP as the .40S&W was to the 10mm--a shorter cartridge designed to fit into a 9mm sized frame while using the same bullet diameter as the longer cartridge--BUT with a couple of important differences:

1. The .45GAP duplicates.45ACP performance while the .40S&W has considerably less power potential than the 10mm.
2. The .45GAP is slightly higher pressure than the .45ACP while the .40S&W is slightly lower pressure than the 10mm.

Not surprisingly, there was a good amount of the same kind of vitriol printed against the .40S&W when it first came out. It would have been much worse had the 10mm been as popular and as firmly entrenched as the .45ACP.
 
The GAP round may be a nice cartridge, but there is nothing wrong with the good old ACP!
 
Another one...

You can get 230 grain .45GAP from numberous manufacturers. True you can't get 255, but the max is NOT 200 gr. As for the rest of your statements I could go on all day. Considering that there are really only 2 or 3 GAP models out, could you please tell me which one uses thinner chamber walls? And please link to something concrete, not your opinion which seems to be skewing the truth.

The pistols will wear out faster and have a harsher recoil? Again, which models are you shooting in which to compare

How many Numberous manufacturers are making 230 grain?? It appears Speer is not, so that leaves Winchester/Olin???

True I am not a .45 Gap expert, so how many pistols in .45GAP do you own and how many tens of thousands of rounds have you fired out of them to assess their durability????? Could you mesure the thickness of the chamber wall on one of those .45 GAP glocks you own???, or on your XD and compare it to the same model in ACP??

If the gun is smaller and the round runs at higher pressure it tends to have a shorter life and more felt recoil, thats my experience in 30+ years of shooting, and 10 years of reloading.

Since I have 8 .45 acp pistols, and I shoot and reload about 10,000 rounds of .45 acp per year, I cant see running out and buying a new caliber that only offers me the advantage of higher pressure for the same performance in a very slightly smaller pistol.

As far as the setback issue goes, we will see.

It will be more CRAP that I have to throw out in my range brass, that is a fact, since I dont plan to reload for or own a .45 GAP pistol.

Please dont take offense at my post.

Thanks
 
I love :) the .45 ACP, but I will own a .45 GAP before it is all over, just for fun.
 
How many Numberous manufacturers are making 230 grain?? It appears Speer is not, so that leaves Winchester/Olin???

Federal and Remington just to name a few...
Here: http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=3&Categoryid=9851&categorystring=653***691***

True I am not a .45 Gap expert, so how many pistols in .45GAP do you own and how many tens of thousands of rounds have you fired out of them to assess their durability????? Could you mesure the thickness of the chamber wall on one of those .45 GAP glocks you own???, or on your XD and compare it to the same model in ACP??

It's obvious you're not an expert. But at least I can back up the things I spew forth. Yes, I own an XD in .45GAP with 8000 rounds through it. That appears to be one more than you so that puts me just a tad bit ahead of you in experience. If you'd like, I CAN measure the thickness of an XD GAP and an XD ACP, can you? No, you can't and that means you have absolutely no basis to support your opinion. And that's exactly what you have. Opinion.

Besides, do you honestly think gun makers would use a thinner chamber wall on something with higher pressures? Please apply a little common sense here.

If the gun is smaller and the round runs at higher pressure it tends to have a shorter life and more felt recoil, thats my experience in 30+ years of shooting, and 10 years of reloading.

My GAP is not smaller than an ACP XD. Seeing as that is the case how can you possibly say what you said with any accuracy? You simply can't. You have 30+ years of shooting and 10 years of reloading. How many of that were with .45GAP? Yep. None. Zip. Zilch. So you have, again, nothing more than unsupported opinion as you don't own one.

Since I have 8 .45 acp pistols, and I shoot and reload about 10,000 rounds of .45 acp per year, I cant see running out and buying a new caliber that only offers me the advantage of higher pressure for the same performance in a very slightly smaller pistol.

Right. It would make no sense to use a caliber that can utilize half the equipment you already have (the GAP). Instead let's get a comletely different caliber so you have to buy ALL new dies. That makes about as much sense as everything else you've said so far. At least your consistant.

But at least the truth comes out in this paragraph. You own 8 ACP firearms. You're exactly what I thought. You're one of the ones that can't see past the letters ACP, and if it doesn't say ACP then it's automatically junk and you'll refuse to learn anything about it.

As far as the setback issue goes, we will see.

It will be more CRAP that I have to throw out in my range brass, that is a fact, since I dont plan to reload for or own a .45 GAP pistol.

Please dont take offense at my post.

The only thing I take offence to is the fact that you put down a round that you know nothing about when someone is trying to make a decision on that round. You aren't being helpful to the guy at all and nothing you've put up has made it past the BS opinion meter yet.


You're welcome. Thanks for playing.
 
You're right, let's answer the man's question...is the GAP like the ACP with a different name?

NO

by the way, are you sure the XD 45GAP is the same size as the XD45 ACP?
 
But at least the truth comes out in this paragraph. You own 8 ACP firearms. You're exactly what I thought. You're one of the ones that can't see past the letters ACP, and if it doesn't say ACP then it's automatically junk and you'll refuse to learn anything about it.

Educate me why is it better???? Will it knock the bowling pins down better?? will it increase my Bullseye scores? If a I shoot a badguy will it kill him faster than an ACP?? Will it save me money on cases, primers, bullets???

The only advantage I have heard is that you can get it in a slightly smaller gun, or possibly have one or two more rounds in the same size gun.

The big disadvantage is that it will crap up my range brass.:neener:

As far as messing up folks decision process with my ignorance goes, I would recommend a .45 acp over a gap to a newbie any day of the week.

Of course I am one of those strange people who owned a .40 S&W gun and got rid of it because I couldnt see any advantage of the .40S&W over a .45 ACP for me. IMHO the .40 S&W does have an advantage over .45 acp for some people, in that you can get more rounds into a smaller gun, and acheive similar performance in stopping power.
 
Several have suggested you can get more .45gap in a similar size pistol. Please enlighten me on how that is achieved given the round is the same diameter as the .45acp. I am sure the .45GAP will fill a niche market. Not at all sure what niche that is but then I am not likely ever to have a reason or need for such a gun.

Take Care

Bob
 
Educate me why is it better????

No, just educate you period.

I haven't said the GAP is better than the ACP. I've just simply corrected your ignorant and incorrect replies as to why the GAP is inferior.

I'm also not recommending a GAP over the ACP. Again, just correcting the "experts" so the OP can make an informed, educated decision instead of one filled with ignoranant and prejudiced input.

I could care less what he chooses in the end, but let's at least give him factual information. The only thing factual I've seen from you is that it will mess up your range brass.

Several have suggested you can get more .45gap in a similar size pistol. Please enlighten me on how that is achieved given the round is the same diameter as the .45acp. I am sure the .45GAP will fill a niche market. Not at all sure what niche that is but then I am not likely ever to have a reason or need for such a gun.

No idea, as I wasn't one of them. If I recall it was Springfield Arms that originally stated this but I haven't heard or seen that from them since the XD-45 which strangely enough holds more rounds than the .45GAP XD...I think it originally started before the birth of their EMP which has been in the works for a while now and just now starting to hit shelves in 9mm.

Purely speculation here, but I think if Springfield chambers the EMP in .45 GAP it will really help the GAP take off. Others are going to copy that miniature 1911 design if it's popular and staying .45GAP instead of going ACP will keep grip size from getting larger. The EMP was supposed to be designed around the GAP, why it came out in 9mm first, I don't know. I'm guessing it's a marketing move more than a design issue. If SA doesn't chamber the EMP in .45 GAP then the GAP will die a slow death in under 10 years. The only people with GAP firearms are Glock and SA and neither are very popular.

by the way, are you sure the XD 45GAP is the same size as the XD45 ACP?

Roughly, yes. There are differences in the two but they are minute and if I set them side by side 10 feet apart you wouldn't be able to tell me which is which.
 
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