Actually there is a modern gun chambered in 7.62x25mm

[lionking]

In another thread we have been talking about the new Ruger coming out and how I and some wish there was a modern gun chambered in the 7.62x25.

Came across this by accident last night, actually Norinco makes a SIG 226 clone in it, the bad news is you can't get it in the U.S.A. which really really sucks.,

But that does open the question why not .357 SIG instead of 7.62x25mm anyway?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

But that does open the question why not .357 SIG instead of 7.62x25mm anyway?
View attachment 881886

My guess would be... CHICOM?

Highly unlikely that they have millions of surplus rounds in the Sig or are already tooled for it as with the 7.62.

Todd.

 

[lionking]

My guess would be... CHICOM?

Highly unlikely that they have millions of surplus rounds in the Sig or are already tooled for it as with the 7.62.

Todd.

No I meant why get a gun at all in 7.62x25mm especially a SIG 226 clone when the SIG .357 cartridge is available. I don't have ballistic specs to compare the two. If that Norinco was available here I would get it just because I want something like that but for practical purposes does the 7.62x25 have anything up on the .357 SIG? The .357 SIG itself is not exactly popular compared to 9mm, 40 and now 10mm again.

 

[<*(((><]

7.62x25 is a 30cal bullet where as 357sig is a .355cal.

7.62x25 can hit 1,700fps with 85-90 grain bullets
357Sig can hit about the same with 90-100gr billets

The .30cal at similar bullet weight and velocity will be better at penetration. And it would be curious to see what modern bullet technology and loading a would achieve. The main idea for the extra penetration is aimed at barrier and body armor defeating.

But your point is valid the .357sig achieves most of what is desired by the 7.62x25.

Personally, for me I would like to see a new handgun caliber somewhere in between .243-.284 maximizing SD, velocity utilizing a current handgun case. I think something like a 7.62x25 tok or .40 cal necked down. make the grip and magazine of the weapon to be similarly sized to a 10mm handgun, keep the barrel lengths in the 3.5”, 4, 5, 6” range. Would be curious to see how flat, and how much penetration one could achieve and with modern advancements in bullet technology controlled expansion. Try and achieve a little rifle performance magic in a handgun.

The 7.5 FK BRNO is headed in the right direction and would scratch my itch if it ever were mainstreamed, with 100gr @2,000-2,100fps.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

No I meant why get a gun at all in 7.62x25mm especially a SIG 226 clone when the SIG .357 cartridge is available. I don't have ballistic specs to compare the two. If that Norinco was available here I would get it just because I want something like that but for practical purposes does the 7.62x25 have anything up on the .357 SIG? The .357 SIG itself is not exactly popular compared to 9mm, 40 and now 10mm again.

I think I failed to state my point clearly.

My guess would be that they have millions of rounds of 7.62 already and the set-ups to make millions more but wanted a modern platform for it.
I don't see that they built this gun to have a modern gun shooting a modern round but rather - a modern gun supported by decades of 7.62 production and in stock ammo.

Can't be dragging tokarev-norincos forever in this day and age. Though, the round is still a valid and intimidating round.

Were it not Chicom - I would REALLY want one.

Todd.

 

[jhb]

I have a bunch of toks and enjoy shooting them except for the poor mil type sights. if a better platform existed, double stacked mag and useful sights etc .......I'd buy one.

I have a .357sig and I like it, but 7.62x25 i just like more.

 

[zaitcev]

My guess would be that they have millions of rounds of 7.62 already and the set-ups to make millions more but wanted a modern platform for it.

It's even worse than you imagine. Chinese were the only country that kept 7.62 Tok in police service until 2000s. They have all sorts of semi-modern guns chambered for it, including unique domestic SMGs. Have a look at these:
https://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/china-semi-automatic-pistols/qx4-eng/
https://modernfirearms.net/en/handguns/handguns-en/china-semi-automatic-pistols/tip-92-qsz-92-eng/

China is gradually getting off 7.62, but it's taking them time.

 

[JohnKSa]

Before Clinton shut down most ammo imports from China, 7.62x25mm was the cheapest centerfire handgun ammo on the market. Which is saying something given that you could get 9mm at Wal-Mart for under 10 cents a round at the time.

I bought a gun in the caliber and a ton of the ammo because it was so cheap to shoot.

 

[TTv2]

.357 Sig doesn't have the potential to defeat body armor like 7.62x25 does due to it's smaller diameter and higher velocity. Someone mentioned that .357 Sig could hit similar velocities with a 90 grain bullet, but that projectile would have very poor ballistics in terms of penetration.

I saw something on a youtube channel's Instagram about how there's only two brands of .357 Sig that is sold at his local store (Winchester FMJ and Sig JHP) and how the Secret Service has stopped using it. The writing is on the wall for .357 Sig and the alleged death that everyone says .40 is undergoing is nothing compared to .357 Sig. What keeps .40 alive is all the used police trade ins and artificially low prices due to the 9mm's popularity, also the ammo being so available and relatively inexpensive compared to other options is going to keep .40 around a long time.

.357 Sig ammo is becoming more scarce and given the added difficulty in reloading it, it's not something that's going to have the longevity like 7.62x25 has. There have been a lot of guns made in the caliber and it's very underrated as a SMG cartridge.

There's obviously been a push the last 30 years for bottlenecked handgun cartridges and I think with body armor becoming more easily accessible there's going to be a demand for handguns that can defeat soft armor. Some will look to 5.7 to do that, others might want .357, but the ideal pistol would be 7.62x25 in that whether the target is armored or not, the 7.62x25 is fast and hits hard enough to be effective no matter what. 5.7 is great at penetrating armor, but is anemic, while .357 Sig is less likely to penetrate armor, but has great stopping power.

The 7.62 is the best of both worlds.

 

[Robbins290]

UMMMMM, i need one of those.

Too bad they are in Canada only.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I acknowledge the differences. and the Fk BRNO blows it away, but 38 Super gives me all the small diameter zip I need. Underwood ammo has a 90 gr offering that is supposed to hit 1640 fps and it's a copper solid slug. Seems penetration issues are eliminated and you get a nice laser accurate round.

And you don't lose capacity to bottle necked brass.

Not trying to be a thread crapper, I just think 38 Super is all too often overlooked, and the bottom line is it's a nifty cartridge and has been for decades longer than a lot of these new ones. But...……….. I'm glad y'all enjoy the light and super zippy stuff. The more the merrier I say.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I acknowledge the difference, but 38 Super gives me all the small diameter zip I need. Underwood ammo has a 90 gr offering that is supposed to hit 1640 fps and it's a copper solid slug. Seems penetration issues are eliminated and you get a nice laser accurate round.

And you don't lose capacity to bottle necked brass.

Not trying to be a thread crapper, I just think 38 Super is all too often overlooked, and the bottom line is it's a nifty cartridge and has been for decades longer than a lot of these new ones. But...……….. I'm glad y'all enjoy the light and super zippy stuff. The more the merrier I say.

Me too - I'd dig a modern 7.62 if it weren't Chicom but 9x23 or .38 Super trips my trigger quite well as it is.

Todd.

 

[94045]

That 40' Head Shot out of a Sig 229 may lead to a short term revival.

 

[fireside44]

Were it not Chicom - I would REALLY want one.

I don't get the chi com hesitation. Did that stop you from buying a flat screen?

 

[barnetmill]

7.62x25 is a 30cal bullet where as 357sig is a .355cal.

7.62x25 can hit 1,700fps with 85-90 grain bullets
357Sig can hit about the same with 90-100gr billets

The .30cal at similar bullet weight and velocity will be better at penetration. And it would be curious to see what modern bullet technology and loading a would achieve. The main idea for the extra penetration is aimed at barrier and body armor defeating.

But your point is valid the .357sig achieves most of what is desired by the 7.62x25.

Personally, for me I would like to see a new handgun caliber somewhere in between .243-.284 maximizing SD, velocity utilizing a current handgun case. I think something like a 7.62x25 tok or .40 cal necked down. make the grip and magazine of the weapon to be similarly sized to a 10mm handgun, keep the barrel lengths in the 3.5”, 4, 5, 6” range. Would be curious to see how flat, and how much penetration one could achieve and with modern advancements in bullet technology controlled expansion. Try and achieve a little rifle performance magic in a handgun.

The 7.5 FK BRNO is headed in the right direction and would scratch my itch if it ever were mainstreamed, with 100gr @2,000-2,100fps.

View attachment 881987

Predict that the 7.5 fk brno round will eventually arrive here in the usa, but maybe not the pistol and maybe under a different brand name.

I think for a pistol the 1,700 from both rounds is sounded quite optimistic in standard barrels so i looked it up.

I do see that double tap loads 80 gr barnes bullets to be advertised at about 1750 in .357 sig.
https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/357-Sig-Ballistics.png
The Sellier and Bellot and Winchester for 6 inch barrels I see about 1650 for 85 grain bullets.
http://files.osgnetworks.tv/11/files/2015/08/Table-1-7.62x25-Tok-Conversion-Brad-Miller.jpg

In my copy of ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3 – 2015 I could not find any pressure standards for either cartridge.

It seems with 85 gr bullets both may be quite close ballistically. I need to see both chronographed together with standard barrels of 4-5 inches. I bet the .357 sig is loaded to higher pressures. In a modern pistol at equivalent pressure maybe the x25 length of the tokarev round could hold enough powder to go even faster.

 

[<*(((><]

Predict that the 7.5 fk brno round will eventually arrive here in the usa, but maybe not the pistol and maybe under a different brand name.

I really hope so because I would do my best to buy one, cost obviously a factor. A 100gr going at those velocities would be a lot of fun to shoot at distance and would be for sure a great defense round. I've followed that round for a while and was hoping someone would bring it or something on par with it to the US.

I think for a pistol the 1,700 from both rounds is sounded quite optimistic in standard barrels so i looked it up.

I do see that double tap loads 80 gr barnes bullets to be advertised at about 1750 in .357 sig.
https://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/357-Sig-Ballistics.png
The Sellier and Bellot and Winchester for 6 inch barrels I see about 1650 for 85 grain bullets.
http://files.osgnetworks.tv/11/files/2015/08/Table-1-7.62x25-Tok-Conversion-Brad-Miller.jpg

In my copy of ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3 – 2015 I could not find any pressure standards for either cartridge.

It seems with 85 gr bullets both may be quite close ballistically. I need to see both chronographed together with standard barrels of 4-5 inches. I bet the .357 sig is loaded to higher pressures. In a modern pistol at equivalent pressure maybe the x25 length of the tokarev round could hold enough powder to go even faster.

Yeah, in doing some further digging there really isn't much difference in velocity between the .357 sig and the Tok with commercially available ammo. Like you I would bet the Tok could be loaded hotter when not handicapped by platform it is fired in.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I don't get the chi com hesitation. Did that stop you from buying a flat screen?

Yup - as a matter of fact it did.
But, before you try to dissect my life one product at a time; While I acknowledge that it is difficult to not support the Chicom government in general, I and my wife go out of our way to NEVER do it due to cost but only if no option is available.

To guns - I have not nor EVER will support their firearms industry allowing it to perfect itself to Western markets when that same industry IS going to be supplying the arms to kill America's sons and daughters.... AGAIN.

TV? so what, Yeah, I know the tech can flow to defense but it is NOT a direct line like buying a Chicom gun.

Todd.

 

[barnetmill]

Yup - as a matter of fact it did.
But, before you try to dissect my life one product at a time; While I acknowledge that it is difficult to not support the Chicom government in general, I and my wife go out of our way to NEVER do it due to cost but only if no option is available.

To guns - I have not nor EVER will support their firearms industry allowing it to perfect itself to Western markets when that same industry IS going to be supplying the arms to kill America's sons and daughters.... AGAIN.

TV? so what, Yeah, I know the tech can flow to defense but it is NOT a direct line like buying a Chicom gun.

Todd.

Much of what you say is true. But I still like my MAK90 in 7.62x39 Anyways, other then some products intended for cowboy action shooting in the USA there are not a lot of current imported chicom guns or ammo on the us market..

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Much of what you say is true. But I still like my MAK90 in 7.62x39 Anyways, other then some products intended for cowboy action shooting in the USA there are not a lot of current imported chicom guns or ammo on the us market..

Hell, I don't see a doggone thing wrong with enjoying one's guns if those are the ones that are affordable or even if somebody doesn't care about the source.

I'm only supporting my own point of view and as far as that goes - I extend it to Turkish guns as well considering what a horrible strategic partner they have been to us and to NATO.

Fella wants Chicom or Turkish guns?... He has every legal and personally moral right to own and enjoy them, It's just not my bag. My Norinco 213 that was in a lot purchase I made makes me appreciate folks digging their Chicoms but then - while I'd have never bought it new, I certainly DO hate to love it.

Todd.

 

[barnetmill]

I really hope so because I would do my best to buy one, cost obviously a factor. A 100gr going at those velocities would be a lot of fun to shoot at distance and would be for sure a great defense round. I've followed that round for a while and was hoping someone would bring it or something on par with it to the US.



Yeah, in doing some further digging there really isn't much difference in velocity between the .357 sig and the Tok with commercially available ammo. Like you I would bet the Tok could be loaded hotter when not handicapped by platform it is fired in.

The two common pistol platforms for 7.62x25 are tokarev and cz52. The cz seems to be the less durable design.

 

[labnoti]

.357 Sig doesn't have the potential to defeat body armor like 7.62x25 does due to it's smaller diameter and higher velocity. ....

Body armor is developed for the most probable threats and trade-offs are accepted for different uses. Someone well-equipped with soft-armor today would be wearing NIJ Level IIIA, and while not all IIIA is equal, armor in this category is rated to stop the most common handgun rounds. .357 Sig is very often tested because it is both common and it suffices for the even more common 9x19mm. If a different handgun round that is not common within a market became more popular, body armor would be changed to defend against it. We saw this with the 5.7x28mm. While not all IIIA stops the most common (non-SS190) 5.7, some of it is specifically built and tested to stop it. With Ruger's introduction of their 57, we can expect 5.7x28 to increase in popularity to some degree, and more of the IIIA armor being produced will be made to stop SS196SR and AE5728A.

Will armor that stops 5.7 stop the Tokarev round? Testing is the best way to determine that, but 7.62x25 remains uncommon in the US market and it is doubtful we'll see the same amount of NIJ testing of body armor made to stop it as we will 5.7x28.

 

[94045]

Body armor is developed for the most probable threats and trade-offs are accepted for different uses. Someone well-equipped with soft-armor today would be wearing NIJ Level IIIA, and while not all IIIA is equal, armor in this category is rated to stop the most common handgun rounds. .357 Sig is very often tested because it is both common and it suffices for the even more common 9x19mm. If a different handgun round that is not common within a market became more popular, body armor would be changed to defend against it. We saw this with the 5.7x28mm. While not all IIIA stops the most common (non-SS190) 5.7, some of it is specifically built and tested to stop it. With Ruger's introduction of their 57, we can expect 5.7x28 to increase in popularity to some degree, and more of the IIIA armor being produced will be made to stop SS196SR and AE5728A.

Will armor that stops 5.7 stop the Tokarev round? Testing is the best way to determine that, but 7.62x25 remains uncommon in the US market and it is doubtful we'll see the same amount of NIJ testing of body armor made to stop it as we will 5.7x28.

I was just watching a Paul Harrell Presentation where a 9mm fired out of a Carbine penetrated 3A Body Armor. Given the .357 Sig is going at least as fast out of handgun I wouldn't say it wouldn't.

 

[barnetmill]

The two common pistol platforms for 7.62x25 are tokarev and cz52. The cz seems to be the less durable design.

In some parts of the world body armor is specifically tested against the 7.62x25. In the past some 7.62x25 intended for submachine guns has had hardened steel cores. I do not know if this penetrates armor any differently.

 

[Robbins290]

I have some old chinese 762x25 that a magnet holds it up from the bullets. I wonder how much that will penetrate

 

[lionking]

I started a thread asking about bans on Chinese guns and it got shut down fast due to passionate opinions, let's refrain from that here, yes I wish this gun was available however I wish more a American or other maker made one I'd get it over a Chinese made one.