AD from a smart carry type holster

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I know your buddy isn't the main point of your post, but you really need to have a talk with him. If he is an airline pilot, he is only authorized to carry if he is an FFDO. If he is an FFDO, there is only one pistol and one way to carry it. Anything else is a felony. I only point this out two you because I am one as well and wouldn't want to see someone sacrafice a career in an economic climate that is seeing a lot of us pilots becoming unemployed. Also, if your mistaken in your info, he may want to correct you.
 
Sorry to sound like a hard ass but it wasn't the holsters fault in my opinion

Conceal carry of a double action pistol cocked and locked is circumventing one of the basic safety features of the gun.

If you can't shoot it double action then your need more range time or a different gun.

I hope you have a speedy recovery.
 
How is your recovery coming?
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Quite good. I'm back at work and with a bit of luck, I'll be out cutting some firewood on my days off this week. I have a handful of absorbable sutures still around, busy being absorbed but nothing that slows me down. Thanks for asking!
 
Wowsa! :eek: Glad you are OK. I'm very interested in this subject as I carry in Smart Carry every day. My thoughts on the subject:

1. Glad you kept your frank & beans, and that you've already had your kids! :)
2. I too worry about this because with smart carry, sometimes the gun is pointed at the family jewels, and sometimes at the femoral. Both are very very bad in the even of AD/ND. So extraordinary care must be taken with this type of carry.
3. I'm surprised that even with the nylon holster that the trigger was able to be pulled - in fact, to have both the safety disengage AND the trigger pulled has got to be a one in a million bad luck incident.
4. Having said that, I personally would NEVER (and now you won't either) carry a gun "cocked & locked" in a smart carry rig. That that was indeed your first and major mistake. There's just too much too risk down there - esp. for me, with no kids yet. :) I carry a Kahr which has a long and medium-heavy trigger pull, even though it's "pre-sprung" a bit.
5. The actual Smart Carry rig, being of a heavy denim, does indeed ofter a stiffness around the gun & trigger guard that would certainly exceed that of the nylon thing you bought. So it's a bit safer.
6. I can't imagine carrying a double-stack gun in that kind of rig. A small kahr or 3" 1911 work great however.
7. Again, glad you can be an example to others without too terrible an outcome. Thank goodness for that surgeon and the mediflight option.

Conceal carry of a double action pistol cocked and locked is circumventing one of the basic safety features of the gun.
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Huh? How do you figure? To carry an HK or CZ or Taurus or one of the new Springfield XDs, or any other number of handguns which have BOTH a C&L ability and a DA trigger, in the C&L mode, is NOT "circumventing a safety feature" at all - it is USING a safety feature (the manual safety) to carry the gun in one way in which it was INTENDED to be carried. How is carrying an H&K cocked and locked any less safe than carrying a 1911 C&L? :scrutiny: I mean, I agree that you shouldn't carry C&L in a Smart Carry type rig, as I said above, but your blanket statement was stated as covering any type of concealed carry, including holster carry, where the holster completely and safely covers the trigger guard.
 
Glad you're doing well

How is your recovery coming?
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Quite good. I'm back at work and with a bit of luck, I'll be out cutting some firewood on my days off this week. I have a handful of absorbable sutures still around, busy being absorbed but nothing that slows me down. Thanks for asking!
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Glad to hear that your recovery is going well. Only one question here. What kind of ammo were you carrying, JHP or Ball? :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I suspect JHP would have done severe damage, possibly irreparable. In a sense, you are a very lucky man. You have my sincere wishes for a complete recovery.
 
Quite good. I'm back at work and with a bit of luck, I'll be out cutting some firewood on my days off this week. I have a handful of absorbable sutures still around, busy being absorbed but nothing that slows me down. Thanks for asking!
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Good, but how is the little doggie?
 
2. I too worry about this because with smart carry, sometimes the gun is pointed at the family jewels, and sometimes at the femoral. Both are very very bad in the even of AD/ND. So extraordinary care must be taken with this type of carry.
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I have to defend the SmartCarry here. At no time does my SmartCarry point at either my genitals or at my femoral artery. At worst, I may get a graze and powder burns.

When standing, it is pointing down along my left leg and slightly outward away from my body (my pants pull the grip in closer to my body, which pushes the barrel outwards a bit), when sitting, it is basically in my lap, pointing forward and across my left leg. When squatting, there is a time during the downward movement where it points at my knee, but after that it points at the ground.

A SmartCarry takes some time before you figure out where to wear it for maximum comfort. Like any holster, you should practice extensively with an unloaded gun before you wear it "for real." I always wear a holster with the empty gun for a few days around the house before wearing it loaded.

I'm not saying the discharge was his fault, I'm just saying that we can learn from his experience that (in addition to not buying less expensive knockoff holsters) we need to be sure we have tested our equipment before we use it.
 
Holy smokes. :what::what::what: I'm not going to wade through the whole thread, but just want to say I'm glad you're ok. You really did manage the trifecta of bad luck with this one.

I never could get the Smart Carry system to work for me. And after reading this, I can tell you for sure that Archerandshooter won't be wearing one again either.... I think it will disappear from his dresser while he's elk hunting. (Darn, hon, must have gotten thrown out with all the storm debris!...) :neener:

Springmom
 
PremiumSauces:
4. Having said that, I personally would NEVER (and now you won't either) carry a gun "cocked & locked" in a smart carry rig. That that was indeed your first and major mistake. There's just too much too risk down there - esp. for me, with no kids yet. I carry a Kahr which has a long and medium-heavy trigger pull, even though it's "pre-sprung" a bit.
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I'm glad you won't carry this way, but the folks at the real SmartCarry site have an entire page showing that this is done safely with a Smart Carry rig.

I really like the ingenious idea one of our posters had of cutting out plastic inserts from milk cartons and then sewing/gluing them into the pocket of the SmartCarry rig. That would make things a bit safer!
 
Glad to hear that your recovery is going well. Only one question here. What kind of ammo were you carrying, JHP or Ball?

Seriously though, I suspect JHP would have done severe damage, possibly irreparable. In a sense, you are a very lucky man. You have my sincere wishes for a complete recovery.
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You're a sick puppy!---But I like that! :D

Seriously, the round was a 95gr. Hornady XTP---which fragmented as it was supposed to do and that's how I wound up with four holes in me!
 
I have to defend the SmartCarry here. At no time does my SmartCarry point at either my genitals or at my femoral artery. At worst, I may get a graze and powder burns.
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Naked Prophet, I'd love to see a video of that. I've heard others make that claim and yet every video I see shows the gun pointing at one of those two vital areas. You'd have to have the barrel of the gun rocked back and pointing out to do what you've described. I've never seen a video where somebody has accomplished this.

Further, let me ask this---if this rig is this much trouble and takes that much practice to wear 'correctly' or 'safely', is it worth it? I mean, you can't figure out how to wear the dang thing from watching the videos on U-Tube or the website! I posted a link to a video from You-Tube showing how the rig is supposed to be worn and yet you (and others) say 'nope, that's not the way it's supposed to be done'. Seems to me to be more trouble than it's worth...
 
I never could get the Smart Carry system to work for me. And after reading this, I can tell you for sure that Archerandshooter won't be wearing one again either.... I think it will disappear from his dresser while he's elk hunting. (Darn, hon, must have gotten thrown out with all the storm debris!...)
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Oh that ol' thing! Some mouse chewed it all to pieces, pooped and peed all in it and I had to throw it out! :D:what:
 
Dang!!!!!! Just read through the thread and I think every male who has read it did a Michael Jackson to check if the Olsen Twins were still swinging in the breeze---where they're supposed to be.

Dang! Glad your safe and thanks for sharing.
 
I'm glad you won't carry this way, but the folks at the real SmartCarry site have an entire page showing that this is done safely with a Smart Carry rig.
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The page you refer to is 1911 specific, which is a little different than other guns that "may" carry in this same "sort of" condition.

1911's have multiple safeties, and are generally safe, even with the thumb safety off. You'd have to get the thumb safety off, then depress the grip safety while pulling the trigger. I'm not saying this cant happen (I've had a number of thumb safeties come off on 1911's while in standard holsters), but the odds go up considerably that they wont.
 
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Recovering nicely and all signs point to a full recovery! The little doggie is almost back to full speed and there ain't no leash attached!
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Um okay, but I was referring to the little Schnauzer with the stickers. I figured he had to be pretty bad off emotionally and I only asked because you said you were doing pretty good already.

Imagine... your owner bends down to render aid to you and then his pants explode and he goes down. There is blood, noise, and the owner is in pain. Then all the people come and take the owner away. That is a lot for a little dog to try to comprehend. :D
 
The page you refer to is 1911 specific, which is a little different than other guns that "may" carry in this same "sort of" condition.

1911's have multiple safeties, and are generally safe, even with the thumb safety off. You'd have to get the thumb safety off, then depress the grip safety while pulling the trigger. I'm not saying this cant happen (I've had a number of thumb safeties come off on 1911's while in standard holsters), but the odds go up considerably that they wont.
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The 1911 is used as an example, and much of the write up is about the 1911, but don't tell me that the 1911 is the only gun mentioned. Here's the link:

http://www.smartcarry.com/cocklock.htm

And note, for example, this sentence:
A 1911 in Condition One is comparable to a Glock, which is always in a semi-cocked condition when a round is in the chamber anyway, and the initial pull of the "small trigger" performs the same function as the thumb safety of a 1911. Endquote---

Did you read that!?? Did you see the picture of the Glock 36 and the Kimber RCP2? What is in the article is that there are other semi-autos that are instantly available to fire, just as the 1911, although using different systems. All of these can be carried in CONDITION ONE.....and my CZ 82 is one of those guns.

Again, my AD was not from an actual Smart Carry rig, and I don't mean to badmouth their product--it may be safe. As I've said before, I started this thread to get folks to think about:

1. What they are carrying---revolver, or semi-auto and how ready the weapon is to fire.

2. What they are carrying the weapon in---how safe is the holster, can the holster material be 'flexed' enough to cause the trigger to go off? Is the trigger guard covered?

These are really important issues as there are a lot of folks who are new to guns and to carrying guns. There is no 'UL' or 'Consumer Reports' for holsters---the info comes from those of use who use the products. I would bet there are knock off copies of the Crossbreed Supertuck, just as there are for the Smart Carry and the 'Clip' type IWB systems. A handful of these copies may be good, many may be dangerous.
 
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Um okay, but I was referring to the little Schnauzer with the stickers. I figured he had to be pretty bad off emotionally and I only asked because you said you were doing pretty good already.

Imagine... your owner bends down to render aid to you and then his pants explode and he goes down. There is blood, noise, and the owner is in pain. Then all the people come and take the owner away. That is a lot for a little dog to try to comprehend.
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Now I'm ROFLMAO! The little dog is a grumpy, stubborn little Schauzer who is 10 years old and couldn't give a hoot once it gets out of the way! She was running around loose while the LEO's were checking things out, happily chasing rodents and rabbits.

What was funny was the Doberman went nuts when the gun went off. The Dobie thinks that a gun going off means there's a bird going down somewhere and that she needs to go get the bird and bring it back! So, off she goes, bounding over the sagebrush looking for a non-existent bird. :neener:
 
Did you read that!?? Did you see the picture of the Glock 36 and the Kimber RCP2? What is in the article is that there are other semi-autos that are instantly available to fire, just as the 1911, although using different systems. All of these can be carried in CONDITION ONE.....and my CZ 82 is one of those guns.
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NO, your CZ-82 is NOT one of those ...with the thumb safety off a 1911 requires two separate opposing pressures to fire the pistol - in effect the safety is NOT off by virtue of the grip safety redundancy. The Glock et al ALSO require two separate pressures (actually three) in the same direction to fire the pistol. The XD combines the two types of safeties to create perhaps the safest form of 'cocked and not locked'.

With the thumb safety off your CZ requires but one pressure, a relatively light one at that, to fire the pistol. If there was any possibility of the thumb safety of the CZ being accidently removed, and there clearly was, it should not be carried in a manner that could allow that occurence .... particularly when a DA alternative exists. Very bad decision or choice of arm.

Your cute lecture recited above about speed and disruption of aim in DA with a CZ-82 notwithstanding, your accident is a case of negligent firearm handling by you. As said above if you are not competent to fire an accurate shot DA with the pistol you could have carried in relative safety then you ought to have practiced until you had attained the competency to do so before carrying the pistol, or break out some money for another type of pistol.

This flippant thread placing the blame for your stupidity on a holster or God's will or a poor Schnauzer dog pisses me off. You are part of the reason for the perception that allowing people to carry firearms for their own protection is a dangerous and ill advised allowance. Your carefully recited Jeff Cooper maxims about speed in a gunfight only make the case for those who would prevent such legislative allowance in places where it does not yet exist and could argue against the continuance of the 'allowed' right to carry in those that do.

Carrying a CZ-82 cocked and locked is idiocy and where idiocy and firearms exist there is no safe holster, there is no safe combination, there is no safe practice. There is only one more dope with a gun sappily giving us all a bad name.
 
Kind of harsh, krs. But I agree.

Personally, I think carrying any gun with a hammer or striker under spring tension sufficient to fire the cartridge is a mistake if you are carrying concealed. Concealment methods for handguns present far too many chances for an inadvertent discharge.

I don't think CC of a 1911 condition 1 in a Smartcarry is much better than the CZ-82. Regardless of how well made the Smartcarry is, it has way too much opportunity to interact with the safeties of the gun, and bending over your gut, belt, waist band, etc. may depress the grip safety, so having a short, light trigger to fire SA is an accident waiting to happen IMHO. Those short, light 1911 triggers are fine for the range but I don't advocate them for concealed carry.

Contrary to popular opinion, I think a DAO revolver or striker-fired auto is the only really safe, acceptable way to carry in a Smartcarry. IWB with a rigid trigger protection is better, but still not perfect. In particular I think for IWB a grip safety is very easily defeated when you are sitting or bending.

So for me it's DAO, no exposed hammers, no safeties. I think the manual safeties give a false sense of security. Better, IMHO, to assume that protecting the trigger is the only viable safety, and therefore select a firearm that reduces the likelihood of inadvertent trigger pull is the best choice.

IMHO, and I am a gun-culture non-conformist. So flame away.
 
Possible Alternative Explanation

Attention has been focussed on the trigger and how the light weight fabric allowed the trigger to be accidentally manipulated. Even with light fabric this would appear difficult to me to accomplish with just folds in pants fabric from squatting.

I would like to humbly suggest an alternative explanation.

When a person squats down the thighs are moving up towards the body, or more correctly the body is lowering down toward the thighs. Not only do you have muscles at work here but also gravity. The potential forces and pressures can be rather high.

If a fold in the fabric of your pants happened to snag behind the cocked hammer while you were squatting down it could have squeezed the hammer with a great deal of force. Could pressure have been enough to cause the hammer to release and fire? With the safety on? With the safety off? I have no experience with CZ's. And even if this would not normally be possible, if there were a malfunction in the gun perhaps it would be possible.

Sigs are very reliable guns, but I would like to direct your attention to a Youtube video of a Sig with a very serious problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtB2UjsJXV4

Could this have happened to your gun with a high pressure squeeze, maybe both squeezing and lifting up?

I bring this up because you might want to carefully check (or have checked) your gun to assure it is working properly.

On the other hand, I may be completely wrong. I often am. Just ask my wife. :rolleyes:
 
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