Addresses and Identification

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Pipefighter

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This morning I went into a LGS here in Va. I picked out a handgun and the clerk asked for my id. He asked if that is my current address. I said well it's not where I get mail but I do still own it and it matches my CCW permit. He slid it back to me and said he couldn't help me. I explained to him that I'm getting divorced and stay in my horse trailer until things have settled down. He said the law has changed to where my id has to reflect where I lay my head at night.
Is there truth in this. Would I be violating a law if I went and bought one somewhere without giving them the details of my life. My wife lives at the property and I am staying 8 miles away at a friends farm.
 
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This morning I went into a LGS here in Va. I picked out a handgun and the clerk asked for my id. He asked if that is my current address. I said well it's not where I get mail but I do still own it and it matches my CCW permit. He slid it back to me and said he couldn't help me. I explained to him that I'm getting divorced and stay in my horse trailer until things have settled down.
The Form 4473 requires the buyer to give his current residence address. Where you own property, "get mail" or what matches your CCW permit is immaterial. It must be your actual residence address. If your government issued photo ID does not match your current residence address then you'll need to provide another government issued document that shows your name and your current residence address. If you cannot provide such documentation then the dealer is prohibited from selling you a firearm.



He said the law has changed to where my id has to reflect where I lay my head at night.
The law hasn't changed since 1968.



Is there truth in this. Would I be violating a law if I went and bought one somewhere without giving them the details of my life. My wife lives at the property and I am staying 8 miles away at a friends farm.
If you lie on the Form 4473 you commit a Federal crime. The dealer has to abide by Federal law. Since you are living at a friends farm, that is your current residence address.
 
Pipefighter wrote:
I will make do with what I have.

...or you could just have your driver's license and CCW permit updated to your current address. If I remember the law from the last time I lived in Virginia, state law requires you to update them within 90 days of establishing a new residence. If you get them updated, then both Federal and State law would be satisfied and you could buy the gun you were wanting.
 
I hadn't really considered that living in a horse trailer was establishing a new residence. I am still hoping I will get that place back after everything is over. It's probably best I don't spend the money right now anyway. So far the Lord has guided me through this. Somethings that didn't seem right at the time have turned out to be good and maybe this is one.
 
Pipefighter wrote:
I hadn't really considered that living in a horse trailer was establishing a new residence.

I can certainly understand that.

I am assuming that you are referring to the horse trailers I have seen that have a spot for the horses in back and something like a tiny trailer home in the front - and not that you are bedding down on straw in a sleeping bag.

Somethings that didn't seem right at the time have turned out to be good and maybe this is one.

Certainly saving money at a time like this when there are bound to be unexpected expenses is not a bad idea.

I will hope and pray that everything works out for the best for you and your "future-former" wife.
 
Pipefighter writes:

I hadn't really considered that living in a horse trailer was establishing a new residence.

In itself, it doesn't. But, changing the destination of your incoming mail, in the eyes of many facets of law (particularly landlord-tenant law) does. This is why it becomes so difficult to kick out a guest who has, in effect, become a roommate as soon as he or she gets a piece of mail delivered to them in your house. Once that happens, they can claim residence there, and you would have to go through legal eviction proceedings to force him/her out (like your friend would now have to do to get you off his property if he wanted to and you refused.)
 
Pipefighter writes:I hadn't really considered that living in a horse trailer was establishing a new residence.
In itself, it doesn't.
You are wholly and completely wrong.
Federal law and ATF regulations REQUIRE the buyer to list his CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS on the Form 4473.



But, changing the destination of your incoming mail, in the eyes of many facets of law (particularly landlord-tenant law) does. This is why it becomes so difficult to kick out a guest who has, in effect, become a roommate as soon as he or she gets a piece of mail delivered to them in your house. Once that happens, they can claim residence there, and you would have to go through legal eviction proceedings to force him/her out (like your friend would now have to do to get you off his property if he wanted to and you refused.)
While your theory of establishing residency may be valid for the purposes of receiving mail, voting, paying taxes etc. It most definitely has NOTHING to do with acquiring firearms under Federal law.
 
The Form 4473 requires the buyer to give his current residence address. Where you own property, "get mail" or what matches your CCW permit is immaterial. It must be your actual residence address. If your government issued photo ID does not match your current residence address then you'll need to provide another government issued document that shows your name and your current residence address. If you cannot provide such documentation then the dealer is prohibited from selling you a firearm.




The law hasn't changed since 1968.




If you lie on the Form 4473 you commit a Federal crime. The dealer has to abide by Federal law. Since you are living at a friends farm, that is your current residence address.
Thank you for the clear explanation.

If a firearm owner moves is there any requirement to report the new address to anyone in connection with his or her firearm ownership?
 
^^ Under Federal law, as dogtown tom pointed out, there is none. However, since the question was "..must report the new address to anyone?", then the answer would be "it depends." It depends on state and/or local law, such as whether or not the owner lives in a registry-required jurisdiction that mandates such notification.
 
Dogtown Tom, like you said, the (federal) law hasn't changed since 1968. Maybe the clerk was citing a Virginia law?

My claim was (is) that, by relocating his mail's destination to a new address at which he is now residing, he has established that he has indeed changed his address, that he's not just "visiting" his friend's farm, whether he admits it or not. This is one of the criteria frequently used in law to determine where a party to a case is actually "living" when the need for establishing that exists, such as when the party disputes it. There are others, of course. I used his mail because that's what he brought up. If federal, state, or local law prohibits a firearm sale to him without updated ID (and we know federal law does), then the clerk would have been correct in his assertion he could not proceed with the sale.
 
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Seems to me like the timeframe would be important in determining residence. I don't change my id when I spend a week camping. To me, staying in the horse trailer for a week or two is no different. (How would you even list that address anyway?...) Now, if you've been staying out there for 4-6 weeks, to me that necessitates a change.
Even then, though, if you own that house, get your mail there, pay the mortgage, your stuff is there, etc, I wouldn't worry about it. It'd be difficult to get mail delivered to a horse trailer out on a friend's property - what address is on your W4/W-2?...
(Do what you want - LGS employees aren't going to investigate the details of your driver's license and neither is the ATF.)
 
^^ I read it that the location of the farm at which the horse trailer is parked is where the OP has had his mail re-directed to, and that further establishes, in the eyes of the law, that he has indeed changed his address.
 
Dogtown Tom, like you said, the (federal) law hasn't changed since 1968. Maybe the clerk was citing a Virginia law?
Virginia law doesn't have jack squat to do with filling out a Form 4473 and complying with Federal law. NOTHING on a Form 4473 asks for a buyers address for voting, taxation or any other state registration requirements. IT IS ONLY FOR COMPIANCE WITH FEDERAL LAW. Virginia can have whatever state laws it wants on the acquisition of firearms, but they can't alter the requirements of the Form 4473.

My claim was (is) that, by relocating his mail's destination to a new address at which he is now residing, he has established that he has indeed changed his address, that he's not just "visiting" his friend's farm, whether he admits it or not.
Irrelevant.


This is one of the criteria frequently used in law to determine where a party to a case is actually "living" when the need for establishing that exists, such as when the party disputes it. There are others, of course. I used his mail because that's what he brought up. If federal, state, or local law prohibits a firearm sale to him without updated ID (and we know federal law does), then the clerk would have been correct in his assertion he could not proceed with the sale.
Again, your "criteria" has nothing to do with filling out a Form 4473. Where a buyer/transferee gets his mail doesn't matter one single bit.
 
Seems to me like the timeframe would be important in determining residence. I don't change my id when I spend a week camping. To me, staying in the horse trailer for a week or two is no different. (How would you even list that address anyway?...) Now, if you've been staying out there for 4-6 weeks, to me that necessitates a change.
Even then, though, if you own that house, get your mail there, pay the mortgage, your stuff is there, etc, I wouldn't worry about it. It'd be difficult to get mail delivered to a horse trailer out on a friend's property - what address is on your W4/W-2?...
(Do what you want - LGS employees aren't going to investigate the details of your driver's license and neither is the ATF.)
Whatever you do, don't read any Federal law or ATF Rulings.
Good grief.
 
Dogtown Tom, like you said, the (federal) law hasn't changed since 1968. Maybe the clerk was citing a Virginia law?

My claim was (is) that, by relocating his mail's destination to a new address at which he is now residing, he has established that he has indeed changed his address, that he's not just "visiting" his friend's farm, whether he admits it or not. This is one of the criteria frequently used in law to determine where a party to a case is actually "living" when the need for establishing that exists, such as when the party disputes it. There are others, of course. I used his mail because that's what he brought up. If federal, state, or local law prohibits a firearm sale to him without updated ID (and we know federal law does), then the clerk would have been correct in his assertion he could not proceed with the sale.

Not sure I entirely agree MedWheeler; there's a clear distinction between someone's place of residence and their mailing address. Surely someone who's mail is delivered to PO Box 123, Anytown, USA doesn't reside there.
 
Whatever you do, don't read any Federal law or ATF Rulings.
Good grief.
I understand the law. I also live in the real world... If the ATF wants to hunt someone down for buying a firearm during a two week camping trip I'd be very surprised. I assume they have bigger things to worry about...
Good grief yourself... enjoy sitting around reading federal laws and ATF rulings... Sounds like fun
 
All I was getting at was that the fact he has re-routed his mail further establishes proof that he has changed his address, and is not just "visiting" his friend's farm, even if he tried to claim he was. I never said that mail re-direction was required to determine an address change (though it would make some pretty solid evidence.)

I can go visit my mom, or stay in a resort or hotel, and not be considered to have "changed my address." But, as soon as I start having my mail follow me, it could be argued that I have indeed done so, and I'd have a very hard time disputing that.
 
Sadly it's been more than 4 to 6 weeks that I've been here. July 10 will be a year that I have been camped out. I never changed my id address because I am hoping to get my farm back. That also leads to truck registration that is co- owned with her. So I just haven't done anything. I get my bills and my pay stubs here. It's good stable place (pun intended) to keep my horses,have a mail drop,store my tools and keep the guns I got out locked up. Everyone should have a friend like I do.
 
... enjoy sitting around reading federal laws and ATF rulings... Sounds like fun
Some useful things are not much fun. Paying bills, tracking investments, paying taxes, keeping files up to date, etc., aren't a lot of fun; but those tasks are all part of the business of living.

For someone who owns guns, knowing and understanding applicable law is one of those necessary tasks. Guns are highly regulated; and anyone who has guns, buys guns, sells guns, ships guns, shoots guns, keeps guns for self defense, etc., will have many opportunities to violate any number of federal and/or state laws while thus engaged. Understanding the laws is first step toward avoiding violating them. And while many minor violations seem to go unnoticed by the authorities, sometimes a violation gets noticed and a gun owner winds up badly burned.
 
^^ Under Federal law, as dogtown tom pointed out, there is none. However, since the question was "..must report the new address to anyone?", then the answer would be "it depends." It depends on state and/or local law, such as whether or not the owner lives in a registry-required jurisdiction that mandates such notification.
I understand. Thank you.
 
^^ But when someone relocates where he lays his head at night, then has his mail re-routed to follow him, that's a pretty good indicator that he has, in fact, moved, isn't it?
 
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