Yes. When my father went to Vietnam and my mother and I lived for a time on my grandfather's 32 foot Chris Craft, I learned from watching my mother deal with all the problems what it meant to be someone of "no fixed address". When your mail comes to Something Something, Slip #1, Lighthouse Point, Florida, it causes all sorts of problems with everyone from the DMV, and the School District on up.
Addresses and Identification
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Yes. When my father went to Vietnam and my mother and I lived for a time on my grandfather's 32 foot Chris Craft, I learned from watching my mother deal with all the problems what it meant to be someone of "no fixed address". When your mail comes to Something Something, Slip #1, Lighthouse Point, Florida, it causes all sorts of problems with everyone from the DMV, and the School District on up.
CoalTrain49
Member
The address on your drivers license and vehicle registration (if the same) is your permanent address. As others have said, it can't be a PO box so where you receive your mail has nothing to do with your established residency or where you happen to be in the country on any particular day. You can't get either a DL or vehicle registration without several other documents to prove your legal status in the US and your so called residence.
These are the requirements for dealers in VA. It isn't just what the ATF says it is.
Virginia
V. IDENTIFICATION AND RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS A. Virginia Resident Transactions The dealer shall determine residency and verify the prospective purchaser's identity as required in Section B of the SP-65. The individual must present a valid photo-ID form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth of Virginia that denotes the individual’s name, sex, and date of birth. 1. Where the primary form is a photo-ID issued by the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV), the dealer shall not transfer a firearm to the prospective purchaser until 30 days after the date of issue of an original or duplicate driver's license unless a copy of his/her DMV driver's record is presented showing that the original date of issue was more than 30 days prior to the attempted purchase. 2. A State Department Driver's License is an acceptable primary form of identification: a photo-identification issued by a [Federal] Governmental Agency that indicates the individual's name, address, sex, and date of birth. 3. The DMV will not issue an original license, permit, or ID card to any applicant who has not presented evidence that he/she is a citizen of the United States, a legal permanent resident, or an authorized temporary resident alien of the United States. In the instance of temporary residence (nonimmigrant status), the driver’s license or ID card will only be valid during the period of authorized stay in the United States.
ATF
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a - 2 - State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State. To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State. Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473, which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document. The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
I believe some FFL holders interpret address as where you happen to be physically staying at the time of purchase. I believe, as many dealers do, that your address is the one on your DL and DMV registration. In WA you must change your DL address within 10 days if you actually move. I'm not sure if a short stay in a friends trailer constitutes a move. What happens if you stay one place this week and someplace else next week. Are you going to change all of your documents to reflect where you happen to be staying that week. Of course not.
I'm out of state for months at a time but my address is whats on my DL and my registration. Has nothing to do with where my mail is going. It gets forwarded.
I can purchase a firearm in AZ using my DL and VR, have it shipped to my dealer here and take possession when I get home. I also have a US passport in case there is some question about my citizenship. All legal.
It's totally up to the FFL to decide if they want to transfer a firearm or not. Doesn't mean they have a good grasp of their requirements.
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CoalTrain49
Member
That's correct. Happens everyday in the RV world with people who hardly ever go home.
Theohazard
Member
There is no such thing as a "permanent address" when it comes to the federal rules for residency when buying a firearm. The address you put on the 4473 must be the address where you're currently living at that time. If the address on your drivers license and/or vehicle registration isn't the address where you're currently living, then it's a felony to put that address on the 4473.CoalTrain49 said:
Your residence address is where you're currently living at the time of purchase. Period. That's not an interpretation, that's federal law. Again, read ATF Ruling 2010-6.CoalTrain49 said:
Not necessarily; your address is where you're actually living, even if it's only for a few months. If you're living at an address that's not the one listed on your DL and registration, then it's a felony to use the address on your DL and registration when buying a gun.CoalTrain49 said:
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CoalTrain49
Member
Well now we're talking about the post office and not the legal requirements of residency.
Lets say in a case where I have my mail forwarded to a friend or relative for 60 days. Does that constitute a permanent change in my residence? Under your definition it does, even tho I've never spent a single night at that address. The USPS wants you to tell them if this is a permanent change or a temporary change. Under what US/state statute or case are you basing this? Just asking. I've already gone thru this with the PO and I know what their policy is.
dogtown tom
Member
You really need to read what ATF says about 'current residence address" and "state of residence".
It has nothing to do with "permanent address", "established residency" "or where you happen to be"........none of which is mentioned in any ATF regulation.
Good grief.
What ATF "says it is" is a requirement for all dealers. If a particular state has additional requirements then the dealer must comply with those as long as they do not conflict with Federal law/ATF regulations.
It's not the job of the dealer to interpret, but to follow the ATF interpretation of "current residence address" and "state of residence".
"Many dealers"? Only those that don't read or follow ATF regulations. It ain't rocket surgery bub......ATF regs clearly define what to do if the current residence address doesn't match the buyers ID.
Once again, you need to stop posting and start reading.
Since Federal law REQUIRES the buyer/transferee to show his CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS on the form 4473, writing in anything other than your current residence address is a felony.
See, this is where you miss the CURRENT residence address portion of Federal law/ATF regulations.
First accurate information you've given yet.
So what? Federal law/ATF regs permits ANYONE to purchase a firearm in another state and have it shipped to a dealer in their state of residence. No DL or VR would be needed because you aren't filling out a Form 4473 in Arizona.
Wow.
You don't have a good grasp of the requirements despite quoting them.
dogtown tom
Member
NO, that's NOT correct.That's correct. Happens everyday in the RV world with people who hardly ever go home.
This advice you are giving would cause someone to violate Federal law. It's been pointed out to you several times what Federal law/ATF regulations have to say but you insist on posting advice that would cause someone to commit a felony.
Stop it now.
Hogwash. Cite the law.
Hogwash once again. Cite legal authority.
An FFL might accept it, but by representing that address as his residence address the buyer would be violating federal law. See the cases I cited in post 43.
Folks need to stop making things up.
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CoalTrain49
Member
You could be right but I didn't see "where you are currently living at the time" in the link you provided.
All federal and state statutes come down to a prosecutor or judges interpretation, and both are a lot more well versed in the statues than someone who isn't licensed to practice law. I'm not qualified to make that interpretation and I truly wish people who have nothing but a FFL would quit passing sentence on people who have never been prosecuted or even charged.
I know any person who holds an FFL has to meet certain ATF and state regulations and I appreciate the fact that some might not want to jeopardize their license on a technicality. I have a professional license and I've practiced under that licence for years. I worked very hard to get that license. I had to pass a 2 day test with eight years education/experience requirements before I could even qualify to test. I had to be very careful in the way I conducted my business. Everything I did could be reviewed by the state and they could have easily revoked my license under a complaint if they saw fit. Tough way to make a living. Some of the people who held the same license I have did some things I wouldn't and lost their license. That's their call and their licence. None of my business.
By the way, I'm not a felon. The state has already determined that.
I have legal counsel from someone who is licensed to practice law in my state. I'll take that over anyone's opinion that isn't licensed to practice law. That would be most people who hold a FFL.
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dogtown tom
Member
Links to ATF regulations and Federal law have been provided ad nauseum. We can't make you read it.
Horsehockey.
ATF regs aren't written in Greek nor are they difficult to understand. BUT YOU NEED TO READ THEM.
Yet you are ignoring the advice of several FFL's and at least one attorney versed in Federal law and continue to give advice that would cause someone to commit a Federal crime. that's not just ignorant, but foolish.
Yeah, you already said that above.
Follow you own advice and you will be soon.
Maybe you ought to float this thread by him before you dig your hole any deeper.
Well certainly a judge's interpretation. So let's look at some interpretations by federal court of appeals judges:
So based on judicial interpretation:
CoalTrain49
Member
Would any one here that proposes to know the state and federal statues deem themselves qualified to represent themselves or anyone else in court charged with a federal firearms violation?
Or is all of this just opinions from folks that don't practice law.
I've already said I wasn't qualified to make an interpretation but there seems to be many experts here that deem themselves qualified.
It was always my understanding as a professional I was not to venture into areas where I had no expertise even tho I was licensed by the state to practice.
Legal advise is worth exactly what you pay for it. I don't think I'll be using any free legal advice but thanks for the opinions anyway.
Or is all of this just opinions from folks that don't practice law.
I've already said I wasn't qualified to make an interpretation but there seems to be many experts here that deem themselves qualified.
It was always my understanding as a professional I was not to venture into areas where I had no expertise even tho I was licensed by the state to practice.
Legal advise is worth exactly what you pay for it. I don't think I'll be using any free legal advice but thanks for the opinions anyway.
CapnMac
Member
What is probably complicating this conversation is that the drafters of 922 seem to have made no attempt to address indigency at all.
My decidedly lay reading of the history gives no clue whether that was from some sort of presumed assertion that indigents (persons with no fixed address) were not "good enough" or represented some crime risk, or that they simply represented no constituency (rather explicit, in the civics sense).
The full-time RV & boating community are significantly disenfranchised by the notion that "normal" people have a single, definable, place of residence. many in that community maintain a PO box to create an illusion of residency as insurance, bank cards, licenses, tax bills all presume one must exist.
In speaking to a couple JDs on RVers and residency, they have opined that for the gain of all the freedom from taxes and the like, the cost is in not having representation, in not being able to get access to things people with residency can just assume. Being experienced barristers, naturally they did not all agree. One did point me to some advice the "community" has been given, that some sort of pied a terre (literally a foot on the ground) is recommended.
My decidedly lay reading of the history gives no clue whether that was from some sort of presumed assertion that indigents (persons with no fixed address) were not "good enough" or represented some crime risk, or that they simply represented no constituency (rather explicit, in the civics sense).
The full-time RV & boating community are significantly disenfranchised by the notion that "normal" people have a single, definable, place of residence. many in that community maintain a PO box to create an illusion of residency as insurance, bank cards, licenses, tax bills all presume one must exist.
In speaking to a couple JDs on RVers and residency, they have opined that for the gain of all the freedom from taxes and the like, the cost is in not having representation, in not being able to get access to things people with residency can just assume. Being experienced barristers, naturally they did not all agree. One did point me to some advice the "community" has been given, that some sort of pied a terre (literally a foot on the ground) is recommended.
MedWheeler
Member
CoalTrain49, in post 55, you respond to a selected portion of what I had previously said, after having removed the rest. What I was getting at was that having one's mail forwarded to an address at which one is also now "laying his head at night" could certainly be used as evidence to prove he has re-located. I was not saying anything about having one's mail forwarded to an address other than where one is "laying his head at night." In the OP's scenario (waaayy back when...), he is indeed laying his head at night, and also receiving his mail at, an address other than the one he presented to his FFL in his purchase attempt. That would make the argument by any prosecutor stronger that he has indeed re-located.
Again, having one's mail forwarded along with himself is not a "definer" of having re-located. On that, you and I agree. It just makes for good evidence; in other words, it can be used to "further establish" a case of re-location of residence. That's it.
Again, having one's mail forwarded along with himself is not a "definer" of having re-located. On that, you and I agree. It just makes for good evidence; in other words, it can be used to "further establish" a case of re-location of residence. That's it.
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Theohazard
Member
Tom is an FFL holder and I'm a manager at an FFL, and we're going by what the ATF says on this subject. In addition, Frank is a lawyer and he not only agrees with us, but he actually cited a federal appellate court ruling on this subject that also agrees with us. What more do you need?CoalTrain49 said:
Which is why we're citing both the ATF and relevant federal court rulings on this subject. I'm not an expert on firearms law, so I am willing to listen to the people and entities who are; namely, the ATF and a federal appeals court. You, apparently, are not willing to listen to those experts, and that's a little befuddling to me.CoalTrain49 said:
And yet you didn't seem to have any problem advising people in this thread to commit federal felonies...CoalTrain49 said:
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Theohazard
Member
This is actually pretty amazing to me. The federal requirements for residency when buying a firearm are super simple. In addition, they're layed out very clearly by the ATF. And if that's not enough, there are federal court rulings further clarifying it. And yet every time this thread comes up, it seems that someone has to come along and completely misunderstand what residency means in this context, and then they argue about it ad nauseum.
I feel like Tom, Frank, myself, and others have participated in at least 10 threads just like this one both here and on TFL, and yet it keeps happening. There should just be a residency sticky we should refer these people to, because this is getting old.
I feel like Tom, Frank, myself, and others have participated in at least 10 threads just like this one both here and on TFL, and yet it keeps happening. There should just be a residency sticky we should refer these people to, because this is getting old.
Asking that question in that way demonstrates that you, yourself, are clueless. There is a lot more to representing someone in court on a serious criminal charge than understanding what the substantive law is.
Once again, I am a lawyer. I practiced law for 30+ years. I don't practice now because I'm retired and don't need to work for a living anymore.
Then why do you post legally unsupportable garbage like:
CoalTrain49
Member
^
Then tell me about my situation.
I only have one address. It's the one on my DL and vehicle registration. I've lived at this address for 20 years. I still live here most of the year. If I roll into another town and tell the post office to send my mail to my RV and give them GPS coordinates they aren't going to deliver my mail because that isn't an address. Actually no address exists on BLM land because the post office just plain doesn't deliver mail there. So in that respect I only have one address. If I put my only address on a 4473 is that a false statement because I'm not physically at the address where I spend 8 months a year?
You and others seem to suggest it is a false statement. I disagree.
And I know you are an attorney. So is my BIL. I wouldn't expect him to give me advise about filling out a 4473. He's a personal injury attorney that deals with insurance companies.
Then tell me about my situation.
I only have one address. It's the one on my DL and vehicle registration. I've lived at this address for 20 years. I still live here most of the year. If I roll into another town and tell the post office to send my mail to my RV and give them GPS coordinates they aren't going to deliver my mail because that isn't an address. Actually no address exists on BLM land because the post office just plain doesn't deliver mail there. So in that respect I only have one address. If I put my only address on a 4473 is that a false statement because I'm not physically at the address where I spend 8 months a year?
You and others seem to suggest it is a false statement. I disagree.
And I know you are an attorney. So is my BIL. I wouldn't expect him to give me advise about filling out a 4473. He's a personal injury attorney that deals with insurance companies.
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Theohazard
Member
Wait, so you're saying part of the year you live at your address on your drivers license, and part of the year you don't? If that's indeed the case, then listing that address on the 4473 during the months when you're not actually living there is a felony.CoalTrain49 said:
You don't need to take my word for it, here's the ATF instructions on the 4473 regarding multiple residences:
CoalTrain49
Member
Actually it would be much better if the ATF would just clarify it. I have a feeling they won't because it would probably be challenged by SAF or the NRA.
Theohazard
Member
What is there to clarify? It's already very clear. Painfully clear. Just because you want to ignore all the citations we've given you doesn't mean the ATF needs to provide yet another one.
Not exactly. These questions will turn on the exact facts, and details matter.
I'm at dinner right now, but I'll sort this all out later.
CoalTrain49
Member
There in lies the problem. I don't have multiple residences. Maybe the ATF defines an RV as a residence I don't know. The example the ATF gave was for a weekend home. I don't have one of those. If I did I would be paying taxes on that property to the state where it is located. I pay the taxes on my RV to the state where it is licensed with the DMV. I would be interested in anything the ATF has published regarding living in an RV. Far more people are on the road in an RV than own a vacation or weekend home. Why don't they clarify that?
Theohazard
Member
The ATF defines where you live as your residence. If you live in a tent by the side of the road, that's your residence. If you live in an RV, that's your residence. Now, the problem becomes getting some government-issued documentation showing those types of residences.CoalTrain49 said:
Based on the limited information you've provided in this thread, it appears that you do: You appeared to indicate that for a large portion of the year you live in your RV. If that's the case, listing your house address as your residence on the 4473 during that time of the year would be a felony.CoalTrain49 said:
CoalTrain49
Member
That's possible. I could be anywhere in the SW as long as 4 months.
I did find this that supports my statement that my RV is not my residence.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state
I have no intention to make AZ my home so my RV shouldn't be considered my residence. Most homes have sewer/water and electrical hook ups. I spent 2 months in AZ in 2015 without any of those things. If you travel in an RV and boon dock you know that it's possible to do that. Lots of people do it.
To be clear I've never purchased a firearm when I was on the road. I've always been in WA where I reside, actual street address with FFL transfer.
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