Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Advice: Denied purchase of shotgun.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ScopedOut, May 29, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ScopedOut

    ScopedOut Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    I have done quite a bit of reading and searching various sites (including this one), and I have come up with an interpretation of the law.

    I am in North Carolina. They do not allow out-of-state/nonresidents to buy a handgun. They do allow nonresident purchases of long guns. I want to purchase a used remington 870 police model recently turned in by the South Carolina Highway Patrol. By the way, it's a beautiful gun with a walnut foreend and stock - maybe a box of shells through it and some time in a cruiser.

    I am also a graduate student originally from and a legal resident of Oklahoma. I will be returning to Oklahoma for the summer in a week's time.

    As I see it, the ATF says that while I reside in North Carolina for school, I am a resident. When I return to Oklahoma, I am a resident there. The problem is where North Carolina still defines me as a Non-resident.

    So I went to purchase the shotgun from an FFL, who allowed me to claim Oklahoma as my legal residence. But on the transfer form, I asked whether I should use my current residence in North Carolina, or my permanent residence in Oklahoma. He stopped and said "that's a dealbreaker." In other words, he sees me as a resident of North Carolina - due to the fact that I have been renting an off-campus apartment for nearly 9 months now. So I would need to get a driver's license or ID confirming me as a resident of North Carolina to go through with the purchase.

    At this point it would be stupid for me to go through all the insurance, registration, and licensing to change my state of residence over a $200 gun - especially when I may only reside in North Carolina for 3 more years. My status as a resident of Oklahoma is perfectly legal as it stands now. There is no good reason to change it.

    So my options for getting that shotgun (which I put on layaway) are either:
    1. Transfer the gun FFL-to-FFL back to Oklahoma and make the transfer to me there.
    2. Hope that the FFL agrees with my interpretation of the law.

    Sorry this is so long, but it's complicated....

    My interpretation:

    North Carolina has designated me a Non-resident. I am temporarily there for education, and when my schooling is complete, I will return to Oklahoma. From that standpoint, I am not prohibited from purchasing a long gun in North Carolina. I should be able to present my Oklahoma ID and make a purchase.

    The BATF has designated me a resident of North Carolina while I reside in North Carolina. They require that I show proof of my residence with a document showing my name, my signature, my DOB, SSN, and place of residence. That would be a North Carolina DL. However, they also say that any combination of documents with my name and a piece of that information, which together gives the name, sig, DOB, SSN, etc. works as well. So from that standpoint, my Oklahoma DL plus my rent bills, or my checkbook, my bank statements... should work. Do you agree?

    As I see it, I can be a nonresident in the eyes of the North Carolina law, and a resident in the eyes of the BATF. I interpret this as being legal. I can be both, as long as my status to North Carolina is legal for the purchase of a long gun, and my status to the BATF satisfies the BATF laws.

    I can demonstrate my residence in Oklahoma (and perhaps show my enrollment in school. is that necessary?) with my Oklahoma DL. I satisfy the North Carolina law.

    I can demonstrate my residence in North Carolina to the BATF with my Oklahoma DL/ID in conjunction with something showing my residence in North Carolina for 90 days or more.

    The FFL just has to be very familiar with the laws, or I will have a hell of a time convincing them of this. So, does my reasoning make sense?
     
  2. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2005
    Messages:
    4,734
    In Texas, you are supposed to update your license with a new residence within 30 days. If you are going to be there for 3 more years, why not go ahead and get a new license etc. That is a long time to wait. Is your license good for 3 more years? I think that is just the breaks with this instant check system. I guess if I were looking at 3 years, I might go ahead and get the new license.

    What are the rules for traffic ticket for out of state residents over there?

    I don't know about the law but the insurance company would probably like to know what area you are living in, but that is between you and them. I have NEVER done that before. :rolleyes:
     
  3. GaryP

    GaryP Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    USA
    Why make it more complicated than it needs to be if Your
    is an option, go for it. If you persist on being right that Shotgun will most likely never be yours because the bureaucrats will prolong everything and in the mean time someone else will get the shotgun.

    Bottom Line: Do you want the shotgun or do you have a personal need to be RIGHT? It is your choice in the end! Keep in mind Reasoning is not something Bureaucrats are good at!


    :evil:
     
  4. thorn726

    thorn726 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,388
    Location:
    berkeley, CA
    it isnt jsut TExas= it is every state i've ever lived in (five of them)

    you are supposed to get your liscense changed by 30 days- probably everywhere in the US=
    the stupid thing- an id doesnt always qualify you as a resident.
    i know at least in terms of college, you got to live there a year for residency, such as lower rates for residents. no idea how that plays out for guns, but i see how the OK id could present a problem.

    the govt sees it this way= you moved for a long period of time without telling THem, it makes them nervous.

    so really you have to accpet that although i hear you, your actual resicdence in in OK, as far as ID is concerned, ewspecially if yer gonna be in NC for 3 more years, you might need to consider NC id
     
  5. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    4,938
    Location:
    The Copper Country, Michigan
    I thought it was legal to buy a longgun out of state, as long as it went throught an FFL?

    I'll go check the ATF website.

    Here it is:
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1
     
  6. Dog

    Dog Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2003
    Messages:
    55
    Location:
    Del City, Oklahoma
    Get a state ID not a drivers liscense but an ID. In Oklahoma they cost about 10 dollars. I am sure NC probably has the same thing.
     
  7. Kamicosmos

    Kamicosmos Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,331
    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Specially if you're going to be there in a couple weeks. Just make it easy.

    Also, I think the 'out of state' buying a long gun is only in ADJOINING states, but I'm not 100% on this though.
     
  8. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,202
    Location:
    Michigan
    The address written in box #2 of the 4473 must match the buyer's legal address that is printed on the driver's license. The state of residence must match the driver's license. The dealer must abide by all of thier local and state laws, as well as all of the local and state laws that apply to the buyer in his/her state of residence.

    So there should be no problem.
     
  9. RoyG

    RoyG Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2004
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    Once upon a time a town called Rabbit Hash
    You can get a NC id card for 10 bucks at the DMV.

    Obtaining a North Carolina Identification Card

    Also go to WalMart. Most of them have a chart in one of the gun cases showing which states you can buy a gun from when you are a nonresident.

    Call the local BATF office and asked them.
     
  10. ScopedOut

    ScopedOut Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    Does this mean I have legally changed my state of residence though? It seems to me that if I solidify my residence with an ID from NC I will be giving up my Oklahoma status.

    hmmm...
     
  11. RoyG

    RoyG Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2004
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    Once upon a time a town called Rabbit Hash
    Non-Residents

    Out-of-state college students who intend to return to their home states upon completion of their educations in North Carolina.
     
  12. ScopedOut

    ScopedOut Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    Ironically, that is opposite of what the ATF says:

     
  13. ScopedOut

    ScopedOut Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    And this is why I don't need an NC driver license

     
  14. Harlie

    Harlie Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    You have

    Missed a possible, easy solution. Get a NC ID card, good for check cashing, etc and listing your NC address. Nothing says your only acceptable photo ID has to be a DL. NC ID is perfectly legal and accepted as such, obtained at license bur' in most states and costs around $10-15. And doesn't require surrender of DL. 30 days in state DL are for permenant residence, which as a student, you are not.
     
  15. Fly320s

    Fly320s Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    ScopedOut,

    I think you are correct in your assessment that you are legally able to buy that shotgun from the dealer and take possession at that store. No need to transfer to OK.

    I think that the problem lies with your communication with the dealer. You asked the dealer "whether I should use my current residence in North Carolina, or my permanent residence in Oklahoma." I'm guessing the dealer took that as a red flag and decided not to sell you the gun. If you had just written your OK address, you'd have that gun in your hands now, right?

    Maybe if you talk to the dealer, if you haven't already, and tell him that you are just trying to stay legal (and explain why you asked that question), he will sell you the gun.

    If the dealer still won't sell, I'd suggest finding another shotgun to buy. I haven't priced a Rem. 870 recently, how much is a new one?
     
  16. Fly320s

    Fly320s Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,828
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    ScopedOut,

    Is the word "may" interpreted as you have the option to decide which state to declare residency? I think it is, but the BATFE interpretation (or more importantly the gun store's) is what matters.

    I had no trouble buying a rifle from an FFL in Ohio while I was a resident of Texas. I picked out the rifle I wanted, asked the dealer if I was legal to buy it (just to be certain), filled-out the 4473 using my Texas DL as proof of ID, waited for the dealer to call in for the background check, and left with my rifle in hand. Total elapsed time of about 10 minutes.
     
  17. DMF

    DMF Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,247
    Location:
    Nomad
    The ATF did NOT designate you a resident of anything. Whether or not you are a legal resident of NC is dependent on what the state of NC uses to determine residency. Most stated do NOT consider out-of-state college students residents unless they have done certain things to make themselves residents of that state. If you are not paying income tax in NC, in-state tuition at your college, registered to vote in NC, have your DL and car registration in NC, etc, then you are likely NOT a resident of NC.

    Congress has however defined the rules for non-residents purchasing long guns in another state. Check this link:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f2
     
  18. DMF

    DMF Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,247
    Location:
    Nomad
    I'm not sure what the OK and NC state laws say, but generally you must be a resident of one state or another, not both. So yes, becoming a NC resident will likely require you give up your status as a resident of OK. See my post above about what is generally required for most states to consider you a resident.
     
  19. cane

    cane Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    743
    Location:
    Colorado
    I am a NC resident and work in Alaska for 5 months out of the year. While working I drive a company vehicle so the insurance required me to have an AK DL. When I come back to NC in the winter, I use the AK DL as ID when I buy firearms. Never had a problem.
     
  20. ScopedOut

    ScopedOut Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    I can't help but wonder what this guy was thinking when he said that my status somehow preculdes me from getting a long gun transferred. I will go tomorrow and figure out what the deal is.
     
  21. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    4,938
    Location:
    The Copper Country, Michigan
    If you got a Wal-Mart in ther area, try Royt's suggestion. That will let you know if there are any state laws that would prohibit the transfer. If not, printout that copy of the ATF FAQ I linked above, and show them that. Barring state laws, there should be nothing prohibiting you from using your OK residency on the yellow form.
     
  22. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    3,454
    Location:
    Terra
    Last I knew, students and soldiers were a special case. You are considered a resident of your home state even though you spend most of the year in the state where you attend school or are posted in the military. Through four years of college, four years of graduate school, and two years of active duty military my official home address was my parents house in my home state. I carried my home state drivers license, my car was registered and insured at that address, and my income tax return used the home address as my official address.

    I believe the laws of most states include specific exemptions for students and military personnel. But you need to check the laws of the particular states involved.

    That having been said ... you can't make it into a game, and claim to be a full-time resident of NC for 8 months out of the year, and then a full-time resident of OK for 4 months out of the year. If you want to be a NC resident, change your driver's license, notify the IRS to send your tax forms to NC, change the registration on your car to NC, and you'll be a NC resident.

    You can't have it both ways.
     
  23. ScopedOut

    ScopedOut Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12
    See - it's confusing.

    I can't tell you how many people have told me that I am absolutely a resident of Oklahoma. There are an equal number saying that I should change my state of residence.

    Unfortunately, the nature of the internet is that people tend to throw out speculation. For the sake of keeping it correct, I'll put up a ruling from the ATF again.

    It means that the ATF sees me as a student. Therefore, while I reside in NC, the address I put on the 4473 form is my NC address when purchasing the gun in NC. When I am in Oklahoma over the summer, I put my Oklahoma address on the 4473 when I want to purchase the gun in Oklahoma.

    It has nothing to do with what I want or what I think about my residency. I could care less which state I am actually a resident of - permanent, whatever. Besides, it would be asinine for me to change my state of residence simply so I can purchase a shotgun. All the insurance changes. I am no longer a dependent if I leave the household of my parents for taxes (I am $40,000 in debt - which will grow to $200k before I even graduate). I need a new tag, new ID. It would end up costing more than the gun simply to get the gun.

    So I was hoping someone had experience with this and could point me in the direction of the law/statute/ruling governing this situation. For those interested, CFR 27 138.11 of the ATF regulations is a great place to start. The rulings that accompany the regulations are invaluable for past interpretation.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page