Advice from a lawyer

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Litigation attorney at the federal level for seven years, with going on three additional years in advisory work.- One tends to lose credibility with a federal judge fast by doing so
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Of course, federal courts are a bit stricter than state courts and again it all depends on the judge.

Besides, I usually find that the truth is sufficient to impeach a witness
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It’s definitely the best policy to follow, unfortunately many people lack the virtue.

This is the kind of crap that goes on in many state/local criminal and civil trial courts.
FMJ ammo: "This man is using HARD PENETRATING AMMO MEANT FOR MILITARY USE!!! HE WANTED TO FIGHT A WAR!!!"

Cop ammo: "This man used the SAME ammo the police use - he's a vigilate cop wannabe!"

Hollowpoint: " . . . extra deadly DUM DUM ammo . . . "

Handloads: " . . . super lethal homemade ammo . . ."

Softpoint: ". . . meant for hunting game, HE was hunting MEN . . . "

Any expanding ammo: ". . . Banned by the Geneva Convention . . . " (actually the Hague Accords, but . . .)

Any non-expanding ammo: "Irresponsibly overpenetrating for urban use, it can kill several with one shot."

Expensive ammo: " . . . Boutique ammo for killers . . . "

Cheap ammo: ". . . wants to get in some discount killing . . . "
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I have heard instructors who didn't give scores because to do so opened up commentary about "he only missed failing by one point."
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The last I heard our Criminal Justice Standards was seriously considering changing the method of qualification scoring from a 70 percent minimum to a pass or fail grade. Reasoning behind the change/ proposal was due to attorneys attacking both ends of scale, darned if you do and darned if you don’t.
 
I am still waiting for someone to site one of these cases as "Aye vs Bee, in the court of Cee, year 19whatever".
 
This sounds like a man who's been reading too many of Mas Ayoob's articles.
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or maybe just spent too much time in a courtroom.

I am still waiting for someone to site one of these cases as "Aye vs Bee, in the court of Cee, year 19whatever"
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I don’t know of any “case” law pertaining to the “general” use of hollow points, after all Walmart still sales them.


Old news, but still interesting.

CLINIC OPPOSES USE OF HOLLOW POINT BULLETS BY U.S. BORDER PATROL
January 17, 2003

The Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc. (CLINIC), the nation's largest network of charitable legal immigration service offices is requesting that the U.S. Border Patrol discontinue its use of hollow point or "controlled expansion" bullets.

While doing research for a comprehensive report on the U.S.-Mexico border, CLINIC learned of migrants who had been shot by Border Patrol agents using hollow point bullets.

In a letter to the Chief of the U.S. Border Patrol, Gustavo De La Viña, CLINIC detailed the disadvantages of the bullets. "Hollow point bullets expand upon hitting a target," wrote CLINIC's Executive Director Donald Kerwin. "The impact forces the bullet to mushroom open, expanding to 160 percent its original size. This causes a large wound cavity, and usually results in death."

Kerwin also pointed out that many police departments in major cities use the hollow point bullets, including New York City because the bullets are less likely to ricochet or pass through a target, thus reducing the likelihood of hitting innocent bystanders. However, he argued, "[t]hese justifications do not hold true in the border area patrolled by INS agents, which is characterized by remote, unpopulated areas."

The bullets have been controversial for more than a century. During the Hague Disarmament Conference of 1899, representatives of 26 nations decided to disallow the use of hollow point bullets during wartime. The subsequent Versailles and Geneva peace treaties also outlawed the use of the ammunition.

CLINIC also voiced its opposition to the use of the bullets to the Chief of Policy for the INS Firearms and Force Board, the INS entity that deals with all matters of policy for the use of force by INS employees. Chief J. Michael Sheehan, Jr. replied to CLINIC that all INS law enforcement officers are issued ammunition with a controlled expansion Ðhollow point - projectile as their official duty ammunition. Sheehan added, "Further, there are no initiatives to change or alter this standard INS issued handgun ammunition."

"We are discouraged to hear that the INS uniformly uses this ammunition and has no plans to limit or discontinue its use," said Kerwin. "We urge that this policy be reconsidered given the vastness of the American desert borderlands, its sparse population and the lethal consequences of hollow point bullets."

The Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc., a subsidiary of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has 148 affiliates in 242 field offices around the country. http://www.cliniclegal.org/content_n011703.shtml
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New Jersey is one place where you do not want to use hollowpoints.

It's virtually illegal to use them there.
 
I'm a trial attorney, licensed at various times in Michigan, Arizona and Tennessee, and numerous federal courts. I've also had the honor of serving on a jury in a felony case in Wayne County, Michigan. I carry Winchester Ranger SXT .45ACP hollowpoints (RA45T). That should tell you everything you need to know about my stand on the issue.
 
This sounds like a man who's been reading too many of Mas Ayoob's articles
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Actually, Ayoob reccomends hollow point ammo. He says this is an argument they might bring up, but you counter it by pointing out the advantages of HP's in stopping the threat before anyone else is injured and the reduced risk to bystanding by reducing the chances of overpenetration. He does NOT reccomend FMJ ammo.
 
I would use HP ammo and not worry about it. Yeah, if you shoot someone the opposing atty. could say lots of bad things about you and your killer ammo, but you can counter them with a good lawyer and expert witness expaining it all. Besides, if the "he had killer bullets people, and he wanted to use them!" argument works on your jury, you were going to lose anyway!!!
BSR
 
Another lawyer here (former prosecutor, appellate criminal defense now): the lawyer referred to in the original post sounds like an idiot.

Remember, the guy who got the lowest score on the Bar exam is still called "Esquire" . . . :rolleyes:
 
I am a lawyer and here's what I think...

The police use hollowpoints for two reasons: (1) effective stopping power and (2) to avoid over-penetration, and thus limiting damage to only the target perpetrator.

Use exactly what the cops use.
 
I have some experience with attorney-types (trust me). Contrary to popular belief....some are idiots. However, that said:
I belief that it is probably prudent to simply purchase what the police use. If you are using something extraordinarily powerful or narly....then yes....an attorney will try to use it against you in a civil lawsuit. I think it is fine to simply respond....."I just buy the same stuff the police use to protect themselves"
Comparing us to "the military (ie: NATO regulations) is just DUMB. Why? Because NATO is DUMB. Nuff said.
 
Hollowpoints = "Killer bullets that are too deadly even for the military."
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Conversely- "I am a civilian- I use the recommended over-the-counter civilian defense ammo and NOT miltiary ammo designed to penetrate, kill, and wound as many bodies as possible."
 
Not hardly

"Remember, the guy who got the lowest score on the Bar exam is still called "Esquire" . . ."

Nonsense. There is ALWAYS a minimum acceptable score. Those who don't equal or exceed it don't get admitted.

And some states cap the number of times you can try! :uhoh:
 
Thinking

A thought occurs: When the suspect lawyer tells you hyperbole, you might ask: "could I retain you?" Give him a buck and get a receipt.

When he asks further questions tell him it's about a shooting.

Look around, make sure no one is in sight and when he asks: "you shot someone?" Answer "not yet, and hold still." :evil:
 
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With all these attorneys, I can’t believe someone hasn’t suggested that you should always carry the same type of ammunition that you qualified and practice with. Plus if you are involved in a shooting incident say as little as possible to LEO, claim self-defense and then request medical assistance for possible post traumatic stress syndrome.

You have just been through a very traumatic event which impairs your ability to think clearly, besides you should never make voluntary statements to LEO without your lawyer present. If you end up being charged criminally or civil, follow your lawyer advice to the tee and be double sure he subpoenas expert witnesses' to testify on your behalf.

Just my two cents worth.
 
Unless you're quite well off I would think that any attorney in his/her right mind (i.e., those who follow the money) would be looking at where you purchased your ammunition (hopefully WalMart or someone with deep pockets) and who manufactured your ammunition. Whether it's ball, LSWC or JHP.
Unless your State, County or City have laws on the books outlawing HP ammunition for the common folk, as in NJ (pointed out earlier), I would lose no sleep in regards to this matter.
 
His recommendation: Carry the most common, cheapest (non-hollowpoint) ammo you can get! (His carry gun was loaded with 230gr FMJ out of a Winchester white box).
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HUGE HUGE HUGE MISTAKE!

Ammo (handgun AP exempting) is not a verdict-determinant issue in any court of law I have ever studied. (I dare you and your prosecutor to cite me a case that shows otherwise.)

You should ask him what he will do at the OTHER civil trial of the 13 year old girl he shot accidentally when his FMJs penetraded clean through a mugger? :what: :what: :what:
 
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