advice on .357 single action

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I'm gonna take a good look at the cylinders/frames of my "Old, New Model Vaquero" 2003 model, vs. my 50th Year Blackhawk. IIRC, the 50th Year Blackhawk cylinder was just a fraction shorter than the Vaquero.

Suggestion: don't use the term "50th anniversary Blackhawk". Because there's two, and they're radically different: the 357 (first one to ship) is a mid-frame same as the New Vaquero and it's cylinders WILL NOT fit a large-frame - everything is different. The 50th Anniversary 44Mag is a large-frame gun and the cylinder swaps fine with the post-'72 SuperBlackhawk, Blackhawk and large-frame Vaqueros.

What I'm still trying to find out is whether Old Model mid-frame cylinders (pre-'73 9mm/357) fit the new mid-frame guns. They're very similar in size. The new mid-frames have transfer bars of course but that shouldn't affect the cylinders...
 
For the same money as a Blackhawk you could get a GP-100 and have a much better home defense gun.

I had the convertable Blackhawk (9mm/.357) and liked it quite a bit. It could shoot 3-1/2" groups with 9mm ammo and 2-1/2" with .38spl at 25 yards.
It's one I'd like to have back.

But if you're serious about protection at home, the GP-100 is a far better choice, and it's a fun shooter too.
 
I don't see why I'd want a 9mm cylinder for my .357. I'd never use it, rather shoot .38 for light loads. Ammo cost is the same for me, a little under 2 bucks a box. Only reason I can think of is I find a lot more free 9mm brass at the range.
Yes, but if you don't reload, you can buy 9mm for even less than .38 special. Not everyone reloads.

-- Sam
 
Not everyone reloads.

They should :D

But if you're serious about protection at home, the GP-100 is a far better choice, and it's a fun shooter too.

Why is that? If you're worried about reloading, get an auto. For home defense, my SAs are pretty darned respectable. You may prefer DA, I do to, but the SA will fill the bill about as well IMHO. I wouldn't exactly feel unarmed with either of my Blackhawks in a defensive situation. I wouldn't be sprayin' and prayin', I suppose, but that's not a good strategy anyway. But, middle of the night when I grab my snubby, I ain't generally got a speedload with me, anyway, so reload time is not a factor.
 
Why is that? If you're worried about reloading, get an auto.

It's not about reloading, it's about getting the first six in and shooting them well under stress.

I think the DA wheel gun is a better choice for most people. I have both and I would pick a DA every time.
 
Uhmmmm Yeah, 50th Year .357 Blackhawk. (Thanks for the tip, Jim. I had forgotten about the 50th Year .44Mag.)

The cylinder on the 50th Year .357 Blackhawk is a smidge shorter (maybe 1/8" or so) than the cylinder on my "Old New Vaquero" of 2003 vintage. If I did swap the cyliners, wonder how much velocity I would loose from a 1/8" cylinder/barrel gap? Bet I could set my hands/gloves on fire with the gap flame... :evil: :D :evil: :D and maybe the lane side partitions at the range, too!

I'll have to pull the cylinders of both revolvers and do some serious measuring.

From the quick looks at it, the Blackhawk has the barrel set further back in the frame than the Old New Vaquero, so that more barrel is in the 'cylinder area'.

EDIT: The Old New Vaquero has more barrel in the cylinder area than the 50th Year .357 Blackhawk...not as I had it stated above
 
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I don't see why I'd want a 9mm cylinder for my .357. I'd never use it, rather shoot .38 for light loads. Ammo cost is the same for me, a little under 2 bucks a box. Only reason I can think of is I find a lot more free 9mm brass at the range.


You can use the 9mm cyclinder to shoot really stout loads by having it converted to .356GNR or 357/44 Bain&Davis. The .356GNR is a .41 magnum necked down to a .357, whereas the 357/44 B&D is a .44 magnum necked down to a .357. Good news for a re-loader!
 
You can use the 9mm cyclinder to shoot really stout loads by having it converted to .356GNR or 357/44 Bain&Davis. The .356GNR is a .41 magnum necked down to a .357, whereas the 357/44 B&D is a .44 magnum necked down to a .357. Good news for a re-loader!

That's an interesting concept! You could maybe get more out of that .356GNR due to the less head size and thicker cylinder. Any thoughts there? Which one could you get the most from, I wonder? I think I'd tend toward the .356GNR unless told otherwise. Wonder if such loads would have the flame cutting and forcing cone errosion problems the .357 Maximum had?
 
If you try and drive 125gr or less slugs at "warp speed" up past 1,700fps, yes.

I'm interested in using one of these calibers (likely 356GNR for the cylinder wall thickness) in a New Vaquero to *slightly* improve on 357Mag power once in a while, but mostly drop pressures and gain from the faster ejection/insertion of rounds due to the bottleneck shape.

I'm starting to wonder if they couldn't be slammed in via a tube sized to the loading gate full of rounds - and a spun cylinder?
 
I'm interested in using one of these calibers (likely 356GNR for the cylinder wall thickness) in a New Vaquero to *slightly* improve on 357Mag power once in a while, but mostly drop pressures and gain from the faster ejection/insertion of rounds due to the bottleneck shape.

Jim - I've been wondering about this. Maybe a naive question on my part, but by how much would pressure really be reduced? On one hand, it seems it would be significantly reduced due to the the bigger case and larger volume. But pressures are normalized to surface area, not volume (pounds per square (not cubic) inch), and the area of the surface being acted on (the bullet) isn't changed. Also, the lower pressure in the case would get bumped back up via the Bernoulli Effect as the gasses pass though the necked down region.
 
Well, then there's the concern brought about with the .22 Jet of bottle neck cases in revolvers causing set back and tying up the cylinder. Don't know if that'd be a concern.

It's not about reloading, it's about getting the first six in and shooting them well under stress.

I think the DA wheel gun is a better choice for most people. I have both and I would pick a DA every time.

Well, there are some with lesser experience who find DA unmanageable (I know, it can be learned) and prefer to shoot SA even with a DA gun. I see little difference if you're going to shoot SA anyway. And, some of those CAS guys can rattle off 6 rounds as fast or faster than I can with a good DA. Of course, I ain't no Jerry Miculek. :rolleyes::D

I'm not sure I can say I'm more well armed for self defense with my M10 Smith or my .45 Colt Ruger blackhawk, though. On the one hand, the 10 is very slick and easy to shoot well with stout .38s. OTOH, you can fit five .38s in a .45 colt case. :evil: Okay, an exaggeration, but point made.
 
I agree with those who have recommended the Ruger Blackhawk. I have a flattop three screw purchased new in about 1965 (for a little under a hundred bucks, IIRC). It has the 6.5 inch barrel and I recommend a shorter barrel as the 6.5 is not handy to carry, at least for a short guy like me. My Blackhawk shot the best group of my life at 25 yards, under an inch off sandbags. It also gave me a life altering moment. The old flattops did not have the transfer bar safety, so I always carried the hammer down on an empty chamber. I was horseback working cattle and looked down to see the Blackhawk at full cock over a live round. Deep breath, lower the hammer, consider the implications. Apparently, I caught the hammer with my rope, or my elbow or whatever. Anyway, get a Blackhawk you won't regret it.

Regards, Coyote
 
Mr. Borland, you've missed something:

But pressures are normalized to surface area, not volume (pounds per square (not cubic) inch), and the area of the surface being acted on (the bullet) isn't changed.

Pressure is being applied to the entire inside volume of the shell, plus the back of the bullet. If pressure was only being applied to the bullet, well that would solve that whole "recoil" issue, right?

:)

Look...the best data I've seen on what minor improvements to case volume do to pressures comes from John Linebaugh's data comparing the 44Mag with the 45LC in strong guns (where he started before graduating to the 475/etc.).

The drops in pressure are enormous. If I'm reading him right, a 32,000psi 45LC load will equal the performance of a 40,000psi 44Mag round - same bullet weight, same velocity, same wear and tear on the gun (minimal either way as long as the gun is in good shape and has tight chambers).

SAAMI spec on the 45LC is a bit over 15,000psi, so an 8,000psi drop in this class of ammo is more than "significant".

As to shell setback:

If the bottleneck cartridge is designed right and/or the transition isn't all that much, it's not a problem. The 38-40 and 44-40 had very gentle transitions from one bore size to the other. The 356GNR is supposedly not experiencing setback at all, probably because the transition isn't all that radical.

Early 38/44B&Ds were having a problem unless care was taken to have oil-free chambers, clean brass, etc. Bain and Davis altered the design to reduce the "abruptness" of the shoulder and make it look more like the old 38-40, and that solved the problem. Hornady's dies are of the "Mark2" variety. You need to make sure all your components plus custom cylinder are of the second type. I believe B&D calls this the "357/44" to distinguish it but Hornady doesn't yet.
 
Here is a picture (My digi-cam stinks in "macro" mode) of the cylinders from my "Old, New Vaquero .357" [2003 vintage] and my 50th Year .357 Blackhawk

Glossy Stainless cylinder is from the "Sheriff's Model" Vaquero. Notice that the piece where the cylinder base pin goes through is much longer that the same piece on the Blackhawk cylinder.

Also, the Vaquero cylinder {meaty part, where the ammo goes} is just a 'smidge' longer than the Blackhawk cylinder, maybe about 1/8". Overall, the Vaquero cylinder is about 3/8" longer. (I forgot the put the ruler in the pic.)
 

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Here is another pic. Both revolvers are loaded with the same PMC brand 158-Gr jacketed soft-point. Note that the bullet tips are closer to the end of the Blackhawk cylinder that the Vaquero Cylinder.
 

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Foghorn, of course the original Vaquero cylinder has to be longer in overall dimensions to fit the 44 magnum-sized frame of the original Vaquero. I love the old Vaquero and the Blackhawk, but the New Vaquero and the Anniversary Blackhawk in .357 are really better sized to the cartridges they are chambered for. My biggest issue right now is I can't decide whether I like the "new" XR3 grip or the "old" XR3-RED grip better,:D.
 
Advise on 357 single action

Just picked up a Ruger 50th 357 and like it very much. The one thing I didn't quite care for are the factory grips. They are a little too thin at the top for me. I found some, from Bearpaw Grips, that are AAAA American Walnut and they are 15% thicker at the top of the grips and feel 100% better.

I'm now thinking about a small framed Vaquero in 45LC.
 
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You could have a 50th 357 re-chambered and re-barreled safely to 45LC, or 44Spl if you want.

Some have reported success converting mid-frames (New Vaq or 50th 357) to 41Magnum. Barrels from the large-frame series screw on there just fine, and take-off barrels are easy to find at Numrich or elsewhere.

Or start with a NewVaq platform and update the sights. Clarks and others have been putting adjustable J-Frame sights on the New Vaq rear and doing a custom front. I updated my front sight to a custom dovetail setup and hogged out the rear groove to match.
 
Just won this one at Amoskeag:

142.jpg


As described by the auctioneers:
Colt Single Action Army Second Generation Revolver serial #67964SA, .357 Mag caliber, 5 1/2" barrel with a mint bore. This revolver is in excellent condition retaining about 98 - 99% original finish overall with most loss due to some superficial scratches on cylinder edges. Case color remains vivid with just a couple tiny areas of light oxidation. The checkered hard rubber eagle grips are mint. Revolver comes in its original one piece wood grained box with Styrofoam insert, warranty card and instruction pamphlet. The box rates about good showing light moisture damage and taped repairs to hinges. This revolver falls into the stagecoach box range making it a very early wood grained box revolver.
 
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