African-American Gun Owners Discuss Police and Other Interactions While Armed

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Speedo66

Speedo66

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Thanks for posting. I find it sad that the Black gun owners in the article feel ostracized from mainstream gun culture but I believe they are justified in their feelings. White conservatives were quick to sell them out when Reagan and the NRA went after the Black Panthers for exercising their open carry rights. Not a lot of trust has been earned in this area.

Racial and religious minorities have more of a reason than most to be proficient with weapons. I'm glad this country allows us to do that.
 
Interesting article--one of the heartbreaking problems is that some African Americans live in very dangerous neighborhoods and many of these cities have draconian punishment for being armed without an almost impossible to get permit (may issue states usually). Thus, often the choice is be unarmed and trust the police to protect which often did not work or be armed illegally to fend off attackers but face legal and physical jeopardy. Those that are able to get permits then face both the risk of police being stopped and often disapproval from others.

Otis McDonald was one such individual in Chicago and that is why he pushed his 2A case to be armed to the U.S. Supreme Court and won.

Part of the problem is that laws have increasingly been arbitrarily enforced and the fines incurred help support local and state governments and while the police often get the blame, the truth is that these laws originate from the people's elected representatives when some group decides that there outta be a law. I pose to people an alternative to any new laws: are you willing for people to die to enforce your new law both police and civilians. In enforcing any law, there will be mistakes, there will be some that resist, and there will be unjust prosecutions, fines, and convictions, usually of the poor.

Just like firearms, laws are not a magic talisman that magically self enforce themselves via the people and magically solve societal problems without cost. Notice that the magic form 4473, waiting periods, UBC's, gun registries, etc. have failed to make much of dent in gun crime. Gun crime rates were much lower in the 1930's without all that stuff.
 
While I've certainly seen racism in the gun owner community, I've EXPERIENCED far more at the hands of supporters of invidiously racist gun controls.

In my personal experience, supporters of invidiously racist gun controls have "authorized" themselves to engage in racism, misogyny, anti-Semitism and homophobia with abandon. They wave away their own bigotry by labeling it as merely "politically incorrect". I've been called the most popular racial slur for Black people by anti-gun cultists, VASTLY more often than by anyone else. But then gun control has ALWAYS been primarily about CONTROL, of Indians, Blacks, Catholics, Jews, or anyone else who's currently despised and disfavored.

A little story:

I was once in a Lakewood, Ohio MacDonald's eating lunch.

An elderly cleaner began berating me for my NRA ballcap.

He opined that the NRA should be "banned".

When I replied, "The last time organizations started getting 'banned', we somehow misplaced 6,000,000 Jews."

His response? He "wasn't so sure that was such a BAD thing".

Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman... or a Nazi.
 
I had to Google “invidiously”; no matter how white you are, there is a place in your brain (and heart) that tells you that black people with guns are not treated kindly nor fairly by history. The ongoing challenge is how to make it right - righting this history may have to follow the coffins of this generation’s beliefs; it will just take time and change.
 
Steve S. said:
I had to Google “invidiously”; no matter how white you are, there is a place in your brain (and heart) that tells you that black people with guns are not treated kindly nor fairly by history. The ongoing challenge is how to make it right - righting this history may have to follow the coffins of this generation’s beliefs; it will just take time and change.
Click to expand...
My grandmother and great uncles were in Chicago for the 1919 race riot, in which future Democrat Mayor Richard J. Daley was a participant.

The Chicago Police Department explicitly took the side of White rioters and arsonists who attacked the Black community.

The 1919 race riot was the ONLY one in which Black and White casualties reached near parity. Why? Black people like my great uncles shot back.

When it became obvious that the police had taken up with the other side, the Black returned doughboys armed themselves with private weapons, as well as military arms taken from their National Guard armories and defended themselves, their families, and their communities. If they hadn't, I might not be here.

Gun control in this country has ALWAYS been about race. Given the things that White anti-gunners have said to me when they didn't know I was Black, it still is.
 
A couple of my black friends that I know through shooting sports gave up their NRA memberships in the wake of the Philando Castile shooting. The NRA really has been pretty unreliable as an ally of black people who want to lawfully carry or even own firearms.
 
Deanimator said:
Gun control in this country has ALWAYS been about race.
Click to expand...

And whether anti-black motivations are involved in most gun control or not, almost any possessory criminal law will fall most heavily on black communities. If you ban a popular consumer good, the people who will most frequently be searched for that item are black folks and other minorities. If you arrest a bunch of people for possession of a no-no item, the ones charged most harshly will be the black defendants. If you convict a bunch of people, the ones sentenced most harshly will be black people.

What boggles my mind is that big swathes of this country are belatedly waking up to that fact as it relates to anti-drug laws, where young black men (and teens) routinely see their lives totally derailed for simple possession, while young white males and teens rarely suffer any lasting consequence for the same acts - yet many of those same people cannot see the inevitability of that dynamic if we broadly prohibit possession of firearms. Whatever the intent, the impact is guaranteed to be disparate.
 
ATLDave said:
And whether anti-black motivations are involved in most gun control or not, almost any possessory criminal law will fall most heavily on black communities. If you ban a popular consumer good, the people who will most frequently be searched for that item are black folks and other minorities. If you arrest a bunch of people for possession of a no-no item, the ones charged most harshly will be the black defendants. If you convict a bunch of people, the ones sentenced most harshly will be black people.
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  1. Does any sane adult with an IQ bigger than their belt size believe for one second that cops search Chappaqua for guns with nearly the zeal that they search Harlem?
  2. A friend used to be a criminal defense attorney in Chicago. He said the ONLY White faces you EVER saw in "gun court" were the judges, bailiffs, and testifying cops.
 
ATLDave said:
A couple of my black friends that I know through shooting sports gave up their NRA memberships in the wake of the Philando Castile shooting. The NRA really has been pretty unreliable as an ally of black people who want to lawfully carry or even own firearms.
Click to expand...

ATLDave,
What should the NRA have done differently in the Philando Castile shooting and in general? I'm not disagreeing with you, but honestly don't know and am trying to understand.
Tom
 
The thinking is that if the NRA is going to hold itself out as the defender of people's right to carry a gun, then when a person is shot simply for possessing a gun by an agent of the state, they need to step up and say that is a deprivation of rights.

Is it fair to say that the NRA's silence in the Castille mater was because of Castille's race? I'm not sure. The NRA also didn't file any briefs in the case of Andrew Scott, a man who happened to be white, and heard an unexpected and loud knock at his door. He answered the door, as quite a few THR members would, holding a firearm. The police officer (who wasn't there to serve a warrant and had no reason to think that Scott was a criminal) shot him at the sight of the gun. In short, the man was shot in his own home for exercising his right to possess a gun. One of my favorite judges (not a conservative... just an independent-minded jurist) had to write a dissent from the 11th Circuit's decision upholding the dismissal of the suit against the officer and his agency. Because the majority of the rest of that court thought it was just fine that a cop shot a man for answering his door holding a gun - or at least sufficiently gray that the cops couldn't be expected to be on notice that such a shooting would be bad.

The NRA has repeatedly sided with cops - or at least stowed all criticism of them - even when they are flagrantly violating gun owners' rights... as long as it's not expressly a gun control law that is at issue. Here's one interesting and thoughtful article on the topic: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ibility-on-gun-rights/?utm_term=.2e4010d06858

I don't think the NRA is racist. I do think their political leadership is so aligned with just general social and political conservatism that they very frequently lose sight of the fact that they are supposed to be about gun rights (and other gun-related stuff), not supporting law enforcement or prayer in schools or anti-abortion stuff or the war on Christmas or sharia law or whatever else Sean Hannity is on about these days.
 
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Speedo66 said:
Interesting article on the feelings of certain African-American gun owners re: interactions with the police and other members of the public while in possession of a firearm. Also, why they carry guns and their feelings on the 2nd Amendment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/reader-center/gun-rights-black-people.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Reader Center
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Thanks for the link, Speedo66. I'm a middle aged white guy with three bi-racial stepchildren (2 daughters/1 son) and one biological daughter from a prior marriage. All are young adults now.

I've taken all but one* of my kids to the shooting range and offered continued support to them when it comes to things gun related (actually, continued support for everything).

I keep articles like this for them to see if and when I think it will benefit them to see it. None of them are really interested in guns, though. However, they know what a regular non-LEO, non-military, gun owning American looks and acts like (me). I am here for them if they seek my view of things regarding guns, or if they want to go shooting again.

*The offer has been given many times, but never taken by this one. I swear I got to get this one to eat real food again instead of the trendy, healthy, expensive stuff that doesn't include beef, pork, or chicken. At least fish isn't off the table, otherwise I'd have a full fledged plant eater on my hands. Geez, I'm a service tech on a service tech's budget for goodness sake. Where did I go wrong? Lololololol.
 
Folks, don’t think for a minute that racism in the US or anywhere else is a thing of the past. Sadly I believe that will continue without a full on Armageddon event where the population is absolutely decimated. It is human nature to draw near to those who we feel most similar to, and race is one of the superficial but obvious things that people can latch onto with little more than a glance. That is sad, but what is more sad is that the NRA and the NAACP are so much at odds. If those two groups, and others, who claim to be pushing for equal treatment of all persons and security of the constitutional rights, then true change would start to happen.

No it does not appear immediately that any group wants to inflict mass chaos and inhumane acts to anybody else in the US right now... a whole lot like Germany in the late 1930s. Thankfully the US has enough of an economy to not have hordes of people desperately looking for ways to feed themselves and who are readily influenced by a slicktalking leader, but then again look at what we do have. We have the Bernie followers, and other groups of “activists” licking their chops at a chance to take power. Yes people of all races, creeds, and ideologies need to be ready and willing to take up arms in defense of what is right, because there is a whole lot of wrong in this world clamoring for a chance to take root and grow.
 
Please, this is an important subject. Keep it focused on the topic of firearms ownership and how we can reach out to those that feel left out, behind, by main stream gun owners. Do not stray into racism as a broader topic as we are a firearms forum and off topic posts will end up getting the thread locked.
 
Supporters of invidiously racist gun controls must be confronted directly. They must not be allowed to evade the issue.

  1. Ask them uncomfortable questions.
  2. Make them acknowledge and defend the Jim Crow nature of gun control.
  3. Make them reconcile the "racism" of voter ID laws and the supposed lack of racism of gun owner ID laws.
  4. Remind them of the racist history of the BATF[E] (Good Old Boys Roundup, etc.)
  5. Make them choose between the "All cops are racists" and "Only cops should have guns" narratives.
  6. Make them attack the Bielski brothers for fighting back against the Einsatzgruppen.

I've been doing these things for 20+ years and they work.

You'll never change THEIR minds, but others will see the truth. In the words of James Brown, "Pull the sheet off of 'em."
 
Deanimator said:
Make them choose between the "All cops are racists" and "Only cops should have guns" narratives.
Click to expand...

I feel that trying to figure this one out might cause a few meltdowns. The choice between the two stances is largely a push by mainstream media. The 2a side of this is that if all cops are racist and all cops have guns then the minority must be allowed to have a gun to effectively stand a chance against the racist bigot that is trying to inflict death or serious physical harm...but then they will flip that to be that the argument is supportive of shooting cops.
 
WestKentucky said:
I feel that trying to figure this one out might cause a few meltdowns. The choice between the two stances is largely a push by mainstream media. The 2a side of this is that if all cops are racist and all cops have guns then the minority must be allowed to have a gun to effectively stand a chance against the racist bigot that is trying to inflict death or serious physical harm...but then they will flip that to be that the argument is supportive of shooting cops.
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Actually, the flip side is making them CHOOSE:

  1. Cops are all violent, racist sociopaths. - If so, why do you want to give violent, racist sociopaths a monopoly on the means of armed force? Why not just deputize the Klan and put David Duke in charge?
  2. Only cops should have guns. - Then you're saying that cops AREN'T all violent, racist sociopaths? Well how MANY are? And why do you keep hiring ones who are, and giving them guns? And don't blame anybody else. Chicago has had ONLY Democrat mayors since I've been alive, and I'm sixty two.

"Rules for Radicals" 101: Make them live by their own rules.

I LIVE for meltdowns, the more catastrophic, the better. You know you've won when THEY start screaming racial, religious and ethnic slurs. Like I said, you'll never change THEIR minds. You just give THEM the opportunity to show who they REALLY are and the minds of others will change by themselves. Been there, done that.
 
Deanimator said:
  1. Does any sane adult with an IQ bigger than their belt size believe for one second that cops search Chappaqua for guns with nearly the zeal that they search Harlem?
  2. A friend used to be a criminal defense attorney in Chicago. He said the ONLY White faces you EVER saw in "gun court" were the judges, bailiffs, and testifying cops.
Click to expand...
This is a specious comparison. Chappaqua has a crime rate of probably 2% of Harlem’s, if even that much, and has it’s own police force, not the NYPD. It’s not even apples and oranges, it’s grapes and cantaloupes.

I lived in Westchester county NY, one town from Chappaqua and worked my last 18 years in LE for a state agency in the Bronx. Not too many cops in Chappaqua feared for their lives walking down the street there.

It’s not that they didn’t search for guns, it’s that they didn’t need to.
 
Thank you for posting this excellent article. This is an undereported topic because Black gun owners do not fit into the liberal narrative: that all gun owners are racist white men.
 
I think silence on the shooting of Philando Castile was a massive fumble for the NRA.

I understand why they might be hesitant to criticize police, but the NRA should have been more brave. I’m not anti police, but that incident was messed up.

You can't expect someone to support you if you are not willing to fight for them.
 
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Anyone read the comments at the end of the article? Hard to imagine people that stupid can survive to adulthood.
 
Speedo66 said:
This is a specious comparison. Chappaqua has a crime rate of probably 2% of Harlem’s, if even that much, and has it’s own police force, not the NYPD. It’s not even apples and oranges, it’s grapes and cantaloupes.

I lived in Westchester county NY, one town from Chappaqua and worked my last 18 years in LE for a state agency in the Bronx. Not too many cops in Chappaqua feared for their lives walking down the street there.

It’s not that they didn’t search for guns, it’s that they didn’t need to.
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It's called equality under the law.

Aside from the fact that merely POSSESSING a firearm without the proper permissions is illegal, regardless of how it's used, the anti-gun cult wants to BAN and CONFISCATE guns. To do that, they've got to go door to door.

Whose door do you think is going to get kicked in FIRST, Hillary Clinton's or the Black guy who works at Footlocker?
 
Hear it loud, hear it clear, hear it now. All men are created equal. (I read that someplace once or twice) Any of you are invited to go shooting with me any time. I dont care what your religion is or what race you are. If you believe in the preservation of ALL of the Constitution and bill of rights, then you are my Brother or my Sister. I will fight for your rights as I fight for my own.

I'm not a rare person. There are millions of us. As long as you are a good person, love this country, and want it to be what it should be, I don't care what other label you wear. I dont care what God you serve, if any. I dont care what country you descend from, I dont care what shade your skin is. I'm just an old, getting fat white guy, from the south, and I got your back.

Any one that doesn't feel in some way similar. You need to check yourself. And, i would venture to guess that is a very short list here. I've been a member of THR for 12 years. I have never seen racial or gender bias in all those years. I feel that all are freedom loving Americans are welcome here.
 
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