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Aimpoint PRO Sight Picture

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by HoosierQ, Jun 28, 2014.

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  1. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Member

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    I am zeroing in, no pun intended, and getting an Aimpoint PRO for my S&W M&P15 Sport. What does the sight picture look like on one of these with the full height, non-folding, M4-style front sight? Does the red dot sit right on top of the front post? Is much obscured by the front sight base?
     
  2. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    You'll see the front sight but whatever is blocked from your sighting eye by the post and the optic will be visible with your other eye. I don't really notice the front sight when shooting since it's not on the same focal plane as the target, which is what you should be focusing on when using a red dot. Whether the dot sits right on the front sight post will depend on your cheek weld and head position. The bullet still goes where the dot is, regardless of whether the dot is on top of the post or not.
     
  3. SnowBlaZeR2

    SnowBlaZeR2 Member

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    It depends on the mount that you use. The factory mount should come with a spacer giving a lower 1/3 cowitness, so the dot will sit above your front sight post. If you prefer, you can remove the spacer to give an absolute cowitness, which will put the dot at the front sight post when both are zeroed. I prefer to use Larue mounts myself, specifically the LT129.

    This is a very basic example, but should give you an idea.

    CowitnessTypes.jpg
     
  4. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Nothing obscures the red dot because it isn't projected on the target. It's actually viewable with the front lens cap closed.
     
  5. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Member

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    I get that part about the projection of the dot. I am talking about how much of the field of view, in the glass if you will, is taken up by the sight base itself. I have the flattop receiver but the conventional front sight base. I didn't want to get a $400 optic and see nothing but sight base...I exaggerate but you get it.

    It was the co-witness part I was missing. I don't know what I will like best but it would seem that the sight picture shown above noted as lower 1/3 co-witness is what I'd prefer or at least what I think I am going to prefer...seeing more through the optic with less of what it beyond obscured by the front sight base. Thanks SnowBlazer! That's the info I was looking for...precisely.

    What I actually prefer I will find out. But I will start out with the spacer in place.
     
  6. SnowBlaZeR2

    SnowBlaZeR2 Member

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    No worries. I have a PRO on a few of my rifles, and you certainly made a good choice. I think you'll enjoy it.
     
  7. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    I purchased a "lower 1/3" co-wittness red dot, thinking I would like that better. Since installing and using it, I find what I really like better is a folding front sight! Maybe others are different, but I find the iron front sight *extremely* distracting and my eye has a tendency to jump back and forth between the dot and the front post when I am trying to aim. Not that big a deal during target practice but I would think it could be a real problem during "tactical" shooting. :(
     
  8. SnowBlaZeR2

    SnowBlaZeR2 Member

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    I agree on the folding front sight. I'm a fan of the fixed front sight "look", and decided to give the A.R.M.S. Silhouette a shot to replace my Magpul Pro sights on two of my rifles. I ordered two, but I'm not home to install them. If they work as good as they look, I'm sure I'll be happy with them.
     
  9. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    I prefer the lower 1/3rd co witness on rifles that don't have a folding front sight. It does take some practice to ignore the front sight post, but it can be done. When I'm shooting I don't see* the front sight or front sight base, just the target and the red dot.

    BSW

    *As in it's visible but my brain is ignoring it.
     
  10. herkyguy

    herkyguy Member

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    I have the same setup and use a regular co-witness. I don't even notice the front post. And, if I haven't shot in a while or just get curious, I can flip up the rear sight to confirm I'm still on zero with the aim point.
     
  11. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    The lower 1/3 cowitness was mandatory when the service rifle pattern with fixed front sight is used.

    BUT - with free floats with 3 Gun style, no front sight is necessary. In fact, the civilian market is about 40 years ahead of military in that regard, hunting rifles dropped front sights in the 1970s when scopes proved reliable.

    In the military, redundancy and extremely conservative standards retain the front sight on combat weapons because red dots can still be damaged due to impact by bullets or the user banging it around. Even with the advances of unbreakable glass for cell phones, nobody is willing to do the same for red dots - and the military hasn't picked up that requirement (which it could, but the offset would be even higher prices to make up for the lack of repeat sales. ) Nobody said the military can continue to make things more expensive in the face of a major downsizing.

    If anything, the 3 Gun response has been to mount an alternate optic out of the primary sight plane. Much the same as NASCAR mounting a spare electronic ignition on the dash for the driver to enable in the race. A $300 part isn't allowed to lose you thousands of dollars by dropping you even one place. Again, it's an extremely redundant and conservative environment.

    For a weekend or seasonal hunting rifle, do we need cowitness, or even iron sights at all on the AR? Again, the hunting rifle users abandoned the concept 40 years ago.

    I'm installing a free float and taking off the front sight. Dead weight for a hunting rifle, and I prefer red dots anyway, as I have been shooting one since the 1970's. I expect to trim about a pound and a half doing it. The front sight is the heaviest item on the barrel and its loss makes a significant difference in reducing the muzzle heavy perception.

    It's also noted the average soldier in the box keeps his BUIS either in his pack or under the bunk. Dead weight on the rifle may not sound like much, but he's required to hump up to 80 pounds on patrol, and that's when he focuses on every ounce he can to eliminate the weight.

    Search the net, cowitness is passing away because fewer and fewer are buying AR's with fixed front sights. That was a '90s deployment kind of thing for a arbitrary military issue gun, and what we see now is that the AR is going thru it's streamlining phase post war now, just the same as the old milsurps getting cut down for hunting use.

    Hopefully the results will be more appealing in terms of style.
     
  12. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    When shooting a red dot, you shouldn't be looking at the dot at all.

    Your focus should be on the target...that's why you can use a red dot with the front of the tube covered
     
  13. henschman

    henschman Member

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    The mount that comes on the PRO from the factory is just slightly higher than absolute co-witness with the spacer in place... it is not as high as a lower 1/3 though. It is kind of an attempt to "split the baby." It still allows for adequate cheek weld for me, which lower 1/3 does not for most shooters.

    With the spacer removed, it is at the correct height for co-witness with HK-height sights, like an MP-5, G-36, SG-550, or F-2000. Without the spacer it would be too low to get a sight picture on an AR... if you could press down low enough to see through the tube, the dot would be somewhere on the front sight base if you have a fixed front sight.

    I personally prefer absolute co-witness if the rear sight folds. I don't even notice the front. I would only use a lower 1/3 if for some reason I had to use a rifle with a fixed rear sight. I don't like compromising that 4th point of contact with the rifle (cheek weld) unless I absolutely have to. The factory PRO mount is OK... I'd prefer straight absolute, but it is close enough for my purposes. It's not enough of a difference to warrant spending the money on a new mount, for me anyway.
     
  14. wally

    wally Member

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    Correct!

    As my possibility of using irons effectively continues to recede with age :( I'm slowly replacing my sight towers with folding front sights -- I've always preferred a folding rear as a back up to any optics. The front sight can be a distraction when using a red dot.
     
  15. Captains1911

    Captains1911 Member

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    With a lower 1/3 co-witness (taller mount), it will look like this:

    DSC01011.jpg
     
  16. SnowBlaZeR2

    SnowBlaZeR2 Member

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    This isn't my experience with either of my PROs, at least not that I can remember. I've since switched to Larue mounts for each, but I am fairly confident that both factory mounts gave a distinctly lower 1/3 co-witness with the spacers. Perhaps my memory doesn't serve me, though. :cool:
     
  17. Fishbed77

    Fishbed77 Member

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    Using the included Aimpoint QRP2 mount with riser, my PRO provides absolute co-witness with Troy Battlesights on my rifle.

    Not using the riser isn't even an option on an AR-15, as the optic would be much to low to provide a proper cheek weld.
     
  18. minutemen1776

    minutemen1776 Member

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    I am also getting what appears to be an absolute co-witness using the Aimpoint PRO and included QRP2 mount. If it's not absolute, then it's awfully close. It is definitely not a lower third.
     
  19. RainDodger

    RainDodger Member

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    I use the Aimpoint Pro on my S&W Sport, with the included mount as it comes from the factory. My rear backup sight is a Magpul and it is an absolute co-witness. Same with my Colt 6920, and that rifle has a MaTech USGI backup sight on the rear, as available from Brownell's.
     
  20. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    I have used a number of red dot sights (I actually got up from my desk and counted 4 rifles and 2 handguns that sport some sort of illuminated dot on my firearms.) and the Aimpoint PRO may be my current favorite.
    I use a absolute Co-Witness and find it very handy, easy and fast to use. The red dot sits right on top of the front sight and when making shots at 100 yds or more I will pop the rear sight up for greater accuracy.
    I think this is an amazing value for your dollar and think you made a great choice.
     
  21. strambo

    strambo Member

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    Meaning you switch to just irons at 100yds or more or try to use the irons and the dot at the same time?

    I have found my hit percentages to be improved by an extra 2-4 hits (out of 40) on torso size targets from 50-300m in Army rifle quals using the RDS alone vs. the issued irons.

    With irons and an M4 I typically shoot 33-36/40, with the Aimpoint 35-40/40.

    What is less tangible than the raw score is I do it quicker and easier (less concentration required) with the dot.
     
  22. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    Irons and red dot.
    Just turn the intensity of the dot down a bit so you don't completely lose the target. Seems to work for me.
     
  23. -v-

    -v- Member

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    If you need to pop up the rear irons for greater accuracy, that suggest that you have an astigmatism - That is, if you look through the rear peep and the dot appears as a single clean dot instead of a smudge.

    Recommend going to the optometrist to get some glasses to correct the astigmatism, and your shooting will improve.
     
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