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Airsoft, tool or toy?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by maganoo82, May 22, 2011.

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  1. maganoo82

    maganoo82 Member

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    Hi all, new member. I figured I would ask it, I didnt see a thread anywhere on it. Simple question, is airsoft good force on force training, or is it a bunch of kiddie toys? Thoughts? Opinions? Curious to see what people say.
     
  2. sherman123

    sherman123 Member

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    I think if used corrctly it's a great tool for force on force training. Some people may argue that you can't relicate a real gunfight with it but that is a no brainer. You can't replicate an empty handed fight without actually having one either but there is a reason fighters spar and roll.
     
  3. smince

    smince Member.

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    Using the gas blow back Airsoft or the C02 is good for force-on-force training as has been stated. The single shot spring powered units are not good for this.

    But you can also use it for backyard/garage/basement training when you can't get to the range.

    It also allows draw-and-fire or shoot-on-the-move practice that many ranges won't allow. Many of the blow back models are sized to use your actual carry gear as well.
     
  4. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    Done some with fellow LEO's and besides being fun - it is a learning curve IF treated as other than a game.

    teaches movement and sound as well as angles of attack.

    Just be SURE that all keep eye protection on at ALL TIMES.

    Cannot stress that enough as accidental discharges happen often during moments of high excitement.
     
  5. dovedescending

    dovedescending Member

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  6. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    The spring loaded plastic ones are mostly toys as they don't hold up very well to rough handling. The Green gas blowback metal versions are outstanding training tools.

    For force-on-force training, their repeating action makes multiple shots practical...for realism, you and your training partners should limit the rounds per magazine (plus you'll get mag change practice). Their limited range (very accurate within their effective range) is actually a plus, mandating tactics over wild shots.

    For home practice, the blowback pistols allow you to practice your draw and press out to first shot or shot-to-shot mag changes in any room.
     
  7. riseagainstforme

    riseagainstforme Member

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    I got a full size glock that a gas operated blowback, feels heavy like a glock. It works good for force on force. I have two mags too. It cost like $100 for the gun and extra for the air can, extra mag.
     
  8. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    They're expensive toys. There are places that will take your money for force on force training using them though. However, using a toy is not a substitute for actually being under fire.
     
  9. gathert

    gathert Member

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    You can get super expensive and customize all you want, or use entry level stuff. I've played for years and you can not tell the difference between my airsoft AR and a real one while looking at it. They are a great way to practice strategies and tactics and goof off with your friends. Just follow the 4 gun rules like you would with any real gun and you will be safe. Plus eye protection.
     
  10. JDoe

    JDoe Member

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    Orly? And which school's, open to Joe Public, in the U.S. use "actually being under fire" for force on force training?
     
  11. maganoo82

    maganoo82 Member

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    I asked about this because we used sims for training at schofield, and after the initial training, pl and psgt asked the rest of us joes if any of us would like to continue that kinda force on force on our own time. Lt was a airsofter from texas, and got most of the platoon into it as well as some of the rest of the company. Ended up being more fun competetion between freinds than training but I still think it was good training (especially since our commander was able to pull some strings and make it to where we could use the base training areas and buildings when not in use). I had never thought about it as a defensive shooting training aid untill a buddy said something. Total brain fart on my part, always looked at it as tactical/troop movement/room clearing training. I was curious to see how many on thr does it cuz it makes sense. Rimfire training is fun, cheap, and works but airsoft is even cheaper and can be done almost anywhere. Thanks for the posts, lookin forward to more opinions on this.

    Happy shooting.
     
  12. kingcheese

    kingcheese Member

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    if its all you got, then its better then nothing, the way i see it you can use blue guns for close up force on force practice, handgun confritation that might turn to wrestling kinda stuff, and you can go to a range for target shooting, practicing taking cover wont help you a bit, things that will stop a plastic bb wont stop most bullets
     
  13. Comedian

    Comedian Member

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    Both, airsoft guns absolutely have the potential to be great training tools and a way to have some fun on the weekend provided you purchase one which accurately replicates the gun want to train with. For the average guy, who doesn't have the luxury of force on force training being provided by an employer, it provides the opportunity to shoot at actual people (without the risk of death or serious injury) rather than paper targets.
    Blue guns are good and all, but they don't replicate the fact that the attacker can prevent your gun from firing by pushing the slide out of battery, that the controls can be unintentionally manipulated during a fight, nor will they tell you when the gun was discharged in the scuffle. Also, it's almost always a good idea to put something between you and your attacker, even if said barrier only provides concealment.
     
  14. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    The important part of FOF isn't the gun, but the interaction with other thinking, moving human beings. If used correctly, airsoft & Sims/UTM guns can be a great benefit to your training. If used inappropriately, they can induce/foster bad habits. Get good training, keep your head in the game & get honest feedback on the scenarios.
     
  15. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Plenty of discussions on their role in training have been conducted in this forum.

    Having used both simunition and airsoft for training, within the limitations of range quality airsoft guns make useful training tools at close range in force on force training. They do not replace simunitions weapons, but are a very economical adjunct permitting individuals to work into the more powerful simulated ammunition.

    Some will argue that they can be useful for draw to shoot training. I'm a little more skeptical of that since trigger control is an element in such training and there's no comparison in trigger control between real firearms and airsoft.
     
  16. kingcheese

    kingcheese Member

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    the only reason i said the blue guns is because they wont break if dropped, airsoft guns might

    if i can stop an attacker now or take cover, im gonna stop him now

    if the attacker gives me the chance to take cover, then i dont need my gun
     
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    WHAT? Unless your "cover" is a vault door or the door of a car in motion heading out of the area, generally taking cover does not equal being safe from continued attack.

    One of the most important things we can practice is shooting while moving to cover and shooting from a position of cover.
     
  18. Comedian

    Comedian Member

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    Yes, but it's not an either/or decision, you can take out your attacker (or at least engage them) while you move to cover. By moving behind cover/concealment relative to the attacker you've made yourself more difficult to hit, why would that not be worth practicing?
    Like Sam1911 said, there's no assurance that an attack will end the moment you take cover.
     
  19. dirtykid

    dirtykid Member

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    I would say air-soft,YES pretty good tool at close-range, if you want to up-the intensity a little use paintball-guns,, they have better range and actually will HURT if shot at closer-ranges,, i have the bruises to prove-it !! Paintball has taught me to leave MINIMAL profile exposed against my attacker,and also sharpened my tactical procedures when you know you are facing an opponent with a weapon,and if you screw-up It's GONNA HURT,, besides the physical-agility required to duck-n-cover keeps me in shape.
     
  20. badgerw

    badgerw Member

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    Are they the same as being on the 2-way range?

    No.

    Are they a good training tool for force-on-force? Yes, if you have the mindset to treat it as real. You need a like-minded training partner or two to make this work.

    For training by yourself? Maybe for draw to 1st shot.

    Bill
     
  21. kingcheese

    kingcheese Member

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    ok, i feel the need to defend my posistion

    my original arguement:
    airsoft guns can be used as force on force training tools, but blue guns would hold up to being tossed around a little bit better

    no where did i say practice wasnt worth the time

    i did mention that what is considered good cover in airsoft s not good cover in a real life situation. a trash can can stop a airsoft bb, but not your typical handgun round.

    all i was getting at is that good cover gets you away from danger, otherwise the time it takes you to get to it isnt worth it, now i am all for the idea of taking cover, but my first reaction is going to get a gun pointing on target , not thinking about if i should hide behind a trash can or not



    so lets get this right this time

    if i have a gun pointing at me i am going to repsond in one of two ways
    first being i am going to get away
    second being i am going to drop him as quick as possible, the more time you spend thinking, the easier it is going to be for your attacker to realize what is going on, i dont need to think about cover, just getting a gun on target, the more complicated it gets, the less likely you are to survive

    and i never said that using an airsoft gun wouldnt be helpful, i was just getting at the fact that a bluegun is harder to break ( and about the same cost)
     
  22. Comedian

    Comedian Member

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    You did:
    Practicing taking cover is absolutely helpful and an extremely important part of training. The fact that what you get behind might not stop a bullet doesn't change that you've still made yourself a more difficult target than you would have been standing still in the open.
    It could be. If I hide behind the corner of a concrete building in force on force training that is still good cover in a real life shooting. Either way, I maintain that moving behind anything that obscures you relative to the threat is almost universally a good idea. By both moving and getting behind something you've made yourself a more difficult target than you were before (assuming you didn't start the engagement in cover that is), which is a good thing.
    Again, getting behind cover does not necessarily mean you've successfully gotten away from anything. Cover doesn't necessarily stop the attacker from continuing to engage you.
    The two aren't mutually exclusive, and the amount of thought it takes to move behind the nearest piece of cover/concealment while engaging is hardly cumbersome. There's nothing about moving to cover that prevents you from drawing and engaging the threat, so why not do both?
    No one ever made the claim that you did say that. The biggest point of contention in your original post is the claim that practicing taking cover when training with airsoft isn't worth doing when it is, regardless of whether or not the barrier is ultimately bullet resistant/proof. Concealment is still better than standing out in the open and moving is still better than standing still regardless of what is being shot at you.

    Either way, respond to a threat how you will. My point is simply that moving to cover/concealment while engaging a threat is absolutely a tactic worth practicing (even with airsoft) that has tangible benefits in the real world.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  23. Whiskey11

    Whiskey11 Member

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    I would say yes it can be. This depends on the equipment used and the folks you train with. In my area about a quarter of the players of airsoft are reaonably mature enough to make it viable. That said, traveling to some of the larger games can help with the maturity level. The other thing is that some of the cqc stuff, even against kids, can teach valuable lessons about fighting up close, but primarily I see it as a hobby that more actively puts me against other people in competition instead of passively like in target shooting.
     
  24. smince

    smince Member.

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  25. kingcheese

    kingcheese Member

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    i think i am digging my self a deeper hole...

    new answer, go for it
     
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