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AK-47 Question....

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by nwilliams, Aug 15, 2007.

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  1. nwilliams

    nwilliams Member

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    I was thinking about this the other day after I picked up my Yugo AK.....

    What makes something an AK-47? Would you consider the Romanian WASR or Yugo M70 true AK-47's or just AK variants that only look like AK-47's?

    I mean is it fair for people who own these types of guns to claim ownership of AK-47's or would it be more proper them to claim ownership of simply an AK variants.

    Personally I think if someone were to ask me if I own an AK-47, I would probably answer "no, I have an AK-47 style rifle, but its not a true AK-47"

    Am I completely off on this or am I on the right track?
     
  2. hankdatank1362

    hankdatank1362 Member

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    If you have a Kimber, Springfield Armory, Para, or any other 1911 other than a Colt...

    Do you still own a 1911?

    Yes.

    If you have a Bushmaster, Stag, DS, or any other kind of AR-15 other than an Armalite, do you still own an AR-15?

    Yes.

    So if you own a WASR, or any other brand of AK, you still have an AK.
     
  3. brentn

    brentn Member

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    If someone asks you if you own an AK47 then you tell them yes, becuase they are referring to design not manufacturer. I believe the design on almost all of them is EXACTLY the same as the original russian, just with semi auto parts only.
    If they ask you if you own an authentic AK47 then you can say no, becuase its made by someone else and is of a semi auto type.

    Thats the way I see it.
     
  4. -gunut-

    -gunut- Member

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    I thought semi-auto variants where known as AKM rifles. Is that right? Then isn't a true AK the select fire ones?

    I would like some clarification also :)

    If someone asked me if I owned an AK-47 I would says yes, simply because my Chinese underfolder is labeled AK-47 Sporter. :neener:
     
  5. rkh

    rkh member

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    It depends on who you ask! :D

    According to my state legislature, an AK-47 is a rifle with "AK-47" stamped on the side of the receiver. An "AK-47 type" rifle, is one that utilizes an AK action that's also chambered to fire 7.62x39.
     
  6. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    The Russians called their original AK, the AK-47 for the year of its adoption.

    After a few years, they changed some things to make it easier to manufacture and called the updated version the AKM (for modified)
     
  7. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    AKM has a stamped receiver and a thinner top cover with ridges. The AK-47 has a milled receiver and smooth top cover.

    AKM from avtomat Kalishnikova Modernizirovanniy or modernized.

    BTW, the very first AK-47 had a stamped steel receiver, but there were problems welding it and maintaining dimnensions, so a milled receiver was adopted.
     
  8. GotGlock

    GotGlock Member

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    GunTech got it right, A true ak47 is milled, a AKM is stamped.
     
  9. dstorm1911

    dstorm1911 Member

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    So then if a Semi auto is no longer an AK or AKM then would that mean the Romanian Patriot gaurd rifles which were semi auto only were not "real" AKMs?

    An AK is a design meeting a standard set of military spec requirements as outlined by the original as to acceptable levels of quality to ensure battle field reliability etc.... your Yugo is exactly as it was when originally built with the exception of no longer being capable of full auto fire the USA reciever that was used to reassemble it meets or actually exceeds the original military spec Yugo reciever the only place it deviates from those battle field quality guidlines is really in the Fire control group depending on which ya have installed as the original called for milled not cast parts which met a specific requirement for hardness and tolerances etc....

    Now a WASR ......... different critter as it does not have any mil spec components used to build it I therefore classify WASRs and others based off of its core design (which greatly deviates from a real milspec AK) as sporters or facsimiles of an AKM rifle as appearance is all they really have in common, but any part built or factory built to full milspec is in all points an AK or AKM save being semi auto only......... Saigas are pure sporters BY DESIGN so even a converted Saiga still is not a true milspec AK but rather another Facsimile of an AKM rifle its core is not military spec.......

    MY .02
     
  10. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    I think the issue is purely semantic. An AK clone is an AK -- same operating system, same control layout for the most part, etc., as far as just about anyone is concerned. Most people do not limit their use of the term "AR-15" to the original manufacturer and call everything else an "AR-15 clone," as a point of comparison. Some might insist that the only 1911 are those from Colt, but most consider a 1911 from Springfield or Kimber or whoever else is still a 1911.

    For what I paid for my Krebs Custom AK, I think I can call it anything I want :)
     
  11. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    Would you even consider a Yugo a "real" AK? Its got what, like 2 parts that interchange? An exaggeration, sure, but it's the "one thats not like the others".

    But in response to the original question, I think it depends a bit on who your speaking with and why. For the most part, I consider and describe mine as "semi automatic AK-47s" or just AKs. If people want to get into the details--and shockingly, most don't care quite as much as I do--then we can talk for hours.
     
  12. dstorm1911

    dstorm1911 Member

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    Mudpuppy, actually a Yugo everything but the furniture and gas tube interchanges with a standard AK a Yugo though does have more in common with an RPK as that is basically what it is in a 16.25" barreled version.. otherwise it maintains perfectly the AK reciever spec requirements, it exceeds a standard AK for bolt and bolt carrier (being stainless steel) as well as reciever and trunions etc.. other than the buttstock and handgaurds a longer gas tube its 100% AK/RPK , the dustcover is your basic milled ak heavy smooth dust cover the pistol grip directly interchanges, the FCG is a direct interchange as is the bolt and bolt carrier , the gas block and sight block could if ya wanted be mounted on a standard AK barrel, the recoil assembly direct interchange nope furniture is the only non swappable items,

    now try putting a standard AK mag in a Saiga without modification, Fire control group, etc... now there ya got very very few interchangable components...... ;)
     
  13. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    Since 1911 is a government designation, Colt can't even lay claim to that. Official government 1911s were made by companies like Remingron Rand, Singer Sewing machine and others, as well as Colt. In the same way that M14s were made by Winchester, H&R and TRW.
     
  14. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    Generally, yes, you have an AK-47. Now, amongst collectors, you must be more specific, but to the general public, you have a Yugo AK.
     
  15. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    I would generally not consider a non-automatic civilian AK derivative to be an actual "AK-47." I refer to my SAR-1 as an "AK" in the generic sense, or as a "civilian AK-47 lookalike," but there are enough people out there trying to intentionally confuse civilian AK derivatives with actual military AK-47's that I don't want to help increase that confusion. To me, a WASR isn't an AK-47 any more than a Rock River LAR-15 is an M16. A real AK-47 is selective-fire.

    I'd personally use the term "civilian AK" to refer to a non-automatic Kalashnikov carbine like a WASR, SAR, or Yugo build.
     
  16. Mikee Loxxer

    Mikee Loxxer Member

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    Its a Kalashnikov rifle, not an Avtomat Kalashnikov. As far as I can tell Avtomat means automatic (as in machine gun). So to answer the question no you do not have an AK-47 nor do you have an assault rifle. Its just a Kalashnikov rifle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2007
  17. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    I'm no expert....

    but I refer to my converted Saiga x39 as a Kalashnikov action rifle...

    1. because it's not an automatic

    and...

    2. because I'm not interested in people freaking out thinking I'm some kind of militia nut running around with an "AK-47".

    The libs have successfully stigmitized that letter / number combination in the minds of "reasonable" people. (sarcasm intended)
     
  18. Ohio Rifleman

    Ohio Rifleman Member

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    You have a neutered AK-47 but an AK nonetheless.
     
  19. LeibstandarteAdH

    LeibstandarteAdH Member

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    The M in AKM simply means Modernized.
     
  20. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    All pedantic ranting aside, if it looks generally like this, you can call it an AK-47

    ak47.gif
     
  21. GotGlock

    GotGlock Member

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    Big RED X
     
  22. SJDigriz

    SJDigriz Member

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    OK, I'm a little confused. WASR's arent true AK's because they have no milspec components? They started life as chopped up Romanian AKM's, kits were then mated with lo-cap receivers and semi-auto FCG's, lo-cap receivers were opened up after ban. The majority of the WASR is Romanian Military AKM, that's milspec enough for me.

    Also, the Saiga is built at Izmash on the same machines, using the same barrels and receivers as the AK-103's. Other than the FCG and the sad exclusion of a thumbnail sized bullet ramp, the Saiga is a Russian-built PC AK-103, IMO.

    Anyhow, they're all fun to shoot whether they are called AK47, AKM, AKS, or whatever.
     
  23. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    The AKM or AKM-47 was the upgraded, stamped-receiver AK that superseded the original milled-receiver AK-47 in Soviet service. It stands for Автомат Калашникова Модернизированный.

    Here's a thread on AK's; scroll down to the part "AK-47 vs. AKM."

    http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/printthread.php?t=68364

    Except you wouldn't call a non-automatic M16-like rifle an M16.

    In my opinion as an "AK" owner, it is wise to make the distinction. The Bradyites are doing their best to pretend there is no difference between a military AK-47 in Iraq and the SAR-1 in my gun safe. Calling SAR's and WASR's "AK-47's" only helps further that confusion, and objecting to that confusion of terms is hardly pedantic ranting.
     
  24. clange

    clange Member

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    WASRs, AFAIK, are built from never before used parts, but they are most likely milspec, probably even left over surplus parts. To say a yugo is more of an AK is pretty silly when at least a WASR is riveted together on the same equipment used to make military rifles. The receiver, while not having dimples, still has the stamping for an auto sear pin hole, indicating they're made from the same dies as a real romanian service rifle (with the dimple reliefs milled off). The saiga receiver with dimples is made at izhmash and is arguably the closest you can possibly get to a current day real russian AK receiver, regardless of how it comes into the country.

    You know what the closest is to a real military AKM? An egyptian Y stamped maadi. You know whats next closest? The lowly SAR-1. None these are 'AK-47s'. If it doesn't have the third hole it's not an AK-47. If it's stamped it doesn't even matter if it's full auto because the stamped rifles were AKMs as others have stated, not AK-47s.

    As for the romanian guard AKs, well, the only difference between the G rifles and a romanian "AKM" was the tab on the back of the disconnector was milled off. They still had auto sears. So, while it may not really be an AKM, you can drop in a quarter sized part and its back to 100%, so if any of the above rifles could be called an AKM it would be that one, but you can't get one so the distinction is moot.

    Short version: AK? Yes. AK-47? No.
     
  25. dstorm1911

    dstorm1911 Member

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    Clang, I only Visit Romania every year for the past 10 years, have two aunts that work at Sadu (where the WASR is assembled) and have only been inspecting guns for import for 15 years so I Might be mistaken....... oh wait nope They are still useing the military reject components as of last week so........

    QUALITY the Yugo was recomended for much much better QUALITY so tell us how many AKs have ya built? surly some at least so ya can be an authority on riveting correct? I build about 4-7 per week every make and model as well as dealer post sample "Real" AKs....... been doin it goin on 20 years now so how much experience ya got riveting an ak together?

    Its like with anything done from factory seconds, sometimes the flaw ya really really gotta search to find othertimes its very obvious when ya put the pants on and find one leg is 6" longer than the other...... the WASR flaws can be as subtle as a gas block cast outa square othertimes its real obvious when the front trunion cracks from improper heat treat or the chrome peels outa the chamber etc.... it all comes down to how thorough your initial inspection is....

    The components go through the military arsenal first and are inspected several times any that don't pass get tossed to a conveyor that dumps em in a bin which gets rolled to the 3 commercial lines in a seperate building there they get inspected by 2 inspectors anything that fails at this point goes to Dragomiresti to be re-smelted parts can be failed for military use for any number of reasons, the front trunions for example ya have a metal bench 3 feet wide 20 feet long at the back 1 foot is a conveyor ya have 2 inspectors at the back side one at the middle and one at the end ya have 3 inspectors at the front side and a 6th who is a fill in if anyone has to use the restroom etc... this one also rolls the filled bins to the correct line, the first inspector has a milled pad in front of her (they are all women generally most in their 50s on up) the milled block is a gauge the trunion can only fit into the various recesses if it is within Military spec requirements if it fails to fit any of the recesses it gets tossed to the conveyor the next inspector will test hardness in 4 points and test for cracks or fractures any failure it goes to the conveyor the last inspector will check barrel journal size and stamp the size number etc.. it goes into the bin at the end of the table for military production if it fails to fit any of the 4 gauges or is outa round it goes to the conveyor.. the other two inspectors are simply to make sure parts that do meet mil spec are not being disposed of on the cheaper commercial lines

    Now when that bin of trunions gets to the commercial building the parts will be inspected by 2 inspectors sitting at a 3'x10' table they check for cracks or obvious flaws the fails here go into a bin for re-smelting the rest go into your WASR or STG2000 etc....

    There are no "G" rifles being dissasembled for parts etc... thats Century marketing BS as much as wishful thinking on the part of buyers and WHY None of the WASRs have the correct arsenal markings on their trunions etc... there are G RIFLES that are converted back to Full auto capability and sold all over the world ya see Romania doesn't have huge piles of chopped up rifles etc... that is the responsibility of the importer to hire people to cutup rifles they buy with the intention of being imported to the USA there are many other countries also buying these same rifles for use by their armies as well as less than popular groups buyin em etc... there is absolutally no reason for Sadu Arsenal to employ people just to demil and reassemble G rifles as WASR rifles its simply not cost effective to destroy a $30 complete rifle (the going rate for a military surplus AK at the wholsale level more on the black market) then they are going to use a USA specific reciever to build a $13 commercial rifle...... doesn't happen if the G gaurd rifles don't sell to American importers then it gets sold as a complete rifle to the next bidder.......

    Romania produces a huge number of modern military grade weapons its onea the countries primary means of funding....... they try to avoid wasteing anything thats why ya can buy a cheap WASR its better to sell the parts cheap as a commercial rifle than to have to retransport the scrap 150 miles then resmelt em down etc...



    heres ya a break down on Romanian Arsenals and production I put together awhile back for someone who wanted to know which arsenal RATMIL was.......

    RATMIL (actually its patromil) is not an Arsenal it is the merge of Sadu and Cugir as well as all the other arsenals of Romania,that the Romanians had to pull off to apease the UN after gettin busted smuggling weapons to a very nasty terrorist we all love to hate. Cugir is no longer producing small arms, they were the sole producer of the Arms used by the Romanian military and is located up in the Beutiful Alps in the district of Alba Cugir is the City name as well , Sadu always produced the weapons sold as contract arms to other countries as well as any militant group with the $$ to pay, Sadu is located in the district of Gorj in the town of Bumbesti there are other arsenals in Romania however these are the only two that produced the AKM rifle and Cugir no longer does so its just Sadu AKA Sadar, The primary clearing house for all things Romanian is

    TRANSCARPAT SPORTOURS INTERNATIONAL is the actual business branch that is responsible for all the sales of everything commercial outa Romania they are Located in Bucharest in the second district, they are the ones ya gotta deal with if ya want to order 30,000 WASRs or parts sets etc.. they also provide the instructors to train customers in the use of the Artillery or bombs they might have just bought etc... they are also who ya gotta deal with if ya wanna sell anything to the Romanian military..... These are the people who have the final say when it comes to all things being exported or imported into Romania, The address is used with all exported weapons and ammunition (this is why most think Cugir, Sadar/Sadu Ratmil etc... is located in Bucharest as thats the address used for everything that leaves Romania) they are also responsible for all the Police equipment and training for Romania....... Additional Arsenals in Romania are as follows


    FILIASI located in the District of Dolj they make training devices, smoke grenades and such.

    DRAGASANI located in the District of Valcea they make light/medium machine guns and ammunition

    BABENI located in the district of Valcea they make specialty weapons and dispose of bad ammunition lots etc.. VERY tight security so don't plan on just dropping in there

    FAGARAS located in the Brasov they make anti-tank weapons and land mines etc...

    TOHAN located in the district of Brasov this is were Romanian RPGs and other such toys are made

    PIROCHIM located in the district of Brasov They make gun powder as well as arial burst munitions

    METROM located in the district of Brasov they make the brass for the ammunition

    MIJA located in the district of Dambovita more hand grenades and reactive anti tank weapons

    DRAGOMIRESTI located in the district of Dambovita in the City of Targoviste this is where all the parts that don't pass inspection go to be re-smelted down and where they dispose of bombs etc...

    PLOPENI located in the district of Prahova they make really big bullets....... artillery rounds that is .....

    ORASTIE located in the district of Hunedoara they make bombs and grenades as well as gun powder

    ARMS located in the district of Alba in the town of Cugir this is a relativly new Arsenal which picks up where Cugir left off it is specialized in the new 5.56 x45 weapons as well as the 9 mm caliber subguns and sidearms yes the current Romania battle rifle is .223 and the issued Sidearm is a clone of the Croation sensation the rest of us know and love as the S.A XD!!

    I'm kinda burned out so have probably forgot a few but that basically is all the arsenals Of Romania that I've been to, I also have contact info if anyone would care to call any up for a chat LOL Ya will need to learn to speak the language however as very few speak english.....

    Since the "removal" of Ceausescu in 1989 Romania has depended heavily on weapons manufacture to pull the country out of the massive hole Ceausescu had placed Romania in during his years as dictator





    Sorry I just get really irritated by people who haven't been there, don't build guns for a living but can tell ya all bout em.... and are more than willing to pass on mis-information based on what they have heard versus what they have seen
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2007
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