AK47 or AR15

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by DrewAK47, Jun 25, 2017.

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  1. Prijador

    Prijador Member

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    This is why I didn't bring up heat.
    The AR tests I've seen have been barrel failures or at the gas tube/block, not BCG's, just as MistWolf said...

    (Not sure why someone felt the need to point out the BCG is a piston - there is a reason I am careful to call it the AR gas tube/key/carrier system, and studiously avoid calling it "DI" - although I suppose I could add "bolt" to the end of the description)

    Also, what the military chooses to do, and not do (like the KAC longevity bolt design) is subject to... a whole host of factors (and massive inertia) - which the history of US Army firearms development illustrates repeatedly - and decisions made under one set of conditions and assumptions sometimes aren't revisited for decades, even when conditions change drastically and assumptions stop being valid. Effectiveness may well end up not being one of the factors given any weight.

    Oh and I like the charging handle in the middle of the rifle because (a) it's near the mag release, so my hand is basically going the same place for a stoppage and (b) I can also work the bolt while still maintaining (at least some of) my sight picture. Too far to the front (HK) or rear (AR), and I find it too awkward. Personal preference... (Probably irrelevant in actual practice, but that's this whole conversation anyway.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  2. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    Agreed. I once had a cop get mad because I told him AR BCGs don't really get that hot, that it was an internet myth. This guy at a range was asking how to lube his rifle, and the cop informs him that he should run the bolt dry because the lube would get burned off right away and gum up the works. But he advocated lubing the locking lugs of all things, while running the carrier pocket completely dry. He proceeded to lecture me about how he had seen AR bolts so hot they would vaporize oil, then went into a tirade about how he was a certified armorer etc. It's sad when people use their position to spread such nonsense. That poor gentleman is probably still running his AR dry. It seems to me that all the myths people perpetuate seem to go, "I learned it from a cop, green beret, ranger, etc.":(

    That's also a valid point about the aluminum. Especially if you're using an aluminum free float rail, basically the whole rifle is one big heat sink. Regarding the rails, sometimes they seem to work too well in that capacity. I once had an aluminum rail that got hotter than the hottest carrier I've ever handled. Ten shots and you couldn't grip anywhere in the first five inches, and after a full mag you wanted gloves. It sinked the heat well, but was very poor at dissipating it.

    Call it DI all you want. It doesn't bother me, and everyone knows exactly what you're talking about.:thumbup:
     
  3. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    Heh heh. I am not an illiterate third world idiot. My ARs runs like champs. AKs do have a more forgiving operating system. The AR on the other hand outshoots my 762x39 AKs. 223 and 545 are a better comparison when comparing operating systems.
    As far as Dunning-Kruger goes, ask yourself if you know the difference between a literal and metaphorical statement.
     
  4. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    Colt calls it "direct gas"
     
  5. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    I never said you were, only that your oversimplified analysis was flawed.

    All I see is someone trying to impress with a metacognitive psychobabble term they recently became aware of, probably himself accused of suffering from it in the course of arguing with liberals online. Wholly inappropriate in the context you supplied. Overconfidence is not synonymous with it, and it doesn't exclusively affect people of low ability.
     
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  6. M1key

    M1key Member

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    ...entering the fray a bit to say our USMC son-in-law with 6 tours in Afghanistan and Iraq (EOD) said he was told to run bolts dry due to the fine sand over there which would turn to mortar-like substance in the presence of any oil. The AKs they encountered weren't oiled at all, either.

    Not that we are concerned so much stateside here.

    M
     
  7. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    No, it was wholly appropriate. I think you are reading too much into it. Thank you for using an ad hominem, really classy.
    I am implying things with my statements. If you aren't tracking then it is a fair criticism that I should be more forward in my statements. Despite having a less robust operating system, ARs will tend to outshoot AKs in the hands of people that can shoot well and not just think they can.
     
  8. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    I'm not reading anything into it, and there is no ad hom attack. Simply observation with some speculation, and vocalizing annoyance with people attempting to use terms they don't seem to fully understand as a pejorative.

    If you want to talk about ad hom, though:

    I'll just say Matthew 7:5 ;)

    I know what you were trying to imply, but it's more than a bit of a reach to say that people who believe they have more skill with a rifle than they actually do qualifies as a case of "stupid people do not realize they are stupid". To reiterate, being a charlatan, lacking humility or general overconfidence in one's ability to execute specific tasks is not tantamount to poor metacognition. Sometimes it's simply a lack of perspective; ever think you were pretty decent at something until you witnessed someone who was a legitimate pro? Conversely, they may be fully aware of their shortcomings but choose to talk themselves up anyway. Most of the people who post about their sub-1/4 MOA groups "all day long" are fully aware that they only actually did it one time with a flier, but continue to BS about it because no one can prove them wrong and most people are too polite to call them out, or simply don't want to waste their time arguing. The psychology involved with those who make extravagant claims for the sake of impressing others has more to do with narcissism or compensation for low self esteem than metacognition.

    None of this, of course, has anything to do with why the OP should choose one platform over another. I think we can, as a group, fairly assess the pros and cons of the two platforms without dragging the mall ninja aspect into it, especially considering that such folks fancy both rifles.
     
  9. grampajack

    grampajack AR Junkie

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    Thank you!!!:thumbup:

    I am so freaking tired of hearing about the Dunning Kruger effect! The way people are using it in arguments is basically just an arrogant way to say, "I disagree with you, therefore you're a moron." Enough is enough!

    You were the one who used an ad hominem. You know nothing about this man or his experience level, and therefore had no basis to say **** about the dunning kruger effect. For that matter, we know nothing about you or your experience level. For all we know you're experience comes from watching youtube vids and playing airsoft. All you did was find a yuppy, self-righteous way to call him a moron without just coming right out and saying it.

    Someone give this man a prize already.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  10. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    I wasn't making a statement about him. If that is what you read, then I will clarify that it was never my intention to make any statement about him.
    No, that is not an ad hominem. It was rude, but it was more to question your line of reasoning which you are free to dispute the validity of.
    Ad hominem deep derp
     
  11. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    And in context:

    "The psychology involved with those who make extravagant claims for the sake of impressing others has more to do with narcissism or compensation for low self esteem than metacognition."

    Unless you're one of those who makes such fantastical claims, it doesn't apply to you. And if you are, then it's a statement of fact, not an ad hom. Read up on fallacies, learn what they actually are besides a way to attempt discrediting your opponent by accusing them of it (a fallacious tactic in itself)

    Now leave it be, because if you insist on proving something which never happened and further derailing this thread, I promise Ironicaintit is correct. I offered an opportunity to disengage from this tangential argument in a dignified manner by redirecting back to the thread topic. Take it.
     
  12. tark

    tark Member

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    Wow!!
     
  13. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    Yes, it is. I also don't agree with your characterization of what constitutes an ad hominem, except for that last one, which you are correct. The mall ninja comment was a nice tongue in cheek touch, btw.. Just so you know I didn't mean to imply you had Dunning-Kruger skill. I believe some people disparage the AR and can't shoot the difference so it comes down to the operating system by itself and not it's application in actual shooting. Again it was not meant as a pejorative against you.
     
  14. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    Back to my criticisms of AKs in 762x39.

    One of my pet peeves is the rainbow arc of 762x39. The point of aim (POA) and point of impact (POI) shift that you get means it is more difficult to hit small targets when you switch ranges. I find myself frequently using hold over and hold under sight pictures to compensate. It really opens up my groups. This is particularly applicable when shooting jack rabbits.
     
  15. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Considering the friction, 5 pages is enough for this time around.
     
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