Alarmist AP article on guns very alarming!

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It goes without saying that domestic enemies of liberty, our homegrown anti-patriots like Bloomberg and Menino, must be stopped at all costs. Their neosocialist ideology threatens the future of all freedom-loving people. They are a bad omen for those of us who take exception to replacing the Constitution with a system closer to mob rule.
 
Read the trace data from ATF used for the report. Page 2 of each report says that not all firearms are traced and of those that are not all of them were used in a crime. Also doesn't tell how/why a gun crossed state lines, could have been bought in one state and the owner moved then it was stolen. Information conviently ignored by MAIG and Brady Campaign (they released a similar report a while back)

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/trace-data/2009-trace-data.html
 
Quote:
said the survey by Mayors Against Illegal Guns
Can anyone really take these guys seriously?

Because other mayors are for illegal guns?

Guess what? 99.9% of the pro-gun community is a big fan of following the law.

This always gets me.
 
What about Vermont, huh AP?

We have about the loosest gun laws, yet there aren't horrendous killings in MA or NY from our firearms. Though we are also tight wads when it comes to firearms, and we don't give them up without a hefty price.
 
Over 100 years ago, Mark Twain said:" There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." The more things change, the more they stay the same.:rolleyes:
 
I have tried to find out the nature of these gun crimes. If a legal gun gets taken to someplace it's illegal to have a gun does it then automaticly become a crime gun?
 
Has anyone noticed how many MegaMillionaire Marxists and Billionaire Bolsheviks of the ruling elite, incessantly seek to (eventually) confiscate the firearms of us serfs and worker peasants? :fire:

L.W.
 
I, too, would like to find out the percentage of those illegal, border-crossing crime guns are used in California, New York, Illinois, and Washington, D.C.

If it was less than 80% I would be very surprised.
 
MAIG Report

The ten states that are the alleged source of 49% of crime guns represent 51% of the US population, and include California one of the strictest gun law states. What MAIG likes to sell is the idea that these 10 states should represent 10% of guns in circulation, and the fact that they represent 49% is supposed to be sinister. If these ten states represent 51% of the population, they could easily represent 51% of the guns in circulation (legal or illegal), so 49% is not disproportionate.

As pointed out above, the ATF trace data is not "guns used in crime". The BATF states: "Not all firearms used in crimes are traced and not all firearms traced are used in crime. Firearms selected for tracing aren’t chosen for purposes of determining which types, makes or models of firearms are used for illicit purposes. The firearms selected don’t constitute a random sample and should not be considered representative of the larger universe of all firearms used by criminals, or any subset of that universe. . . .ources reported for firearms traced do not necessarily represent the sources or methods by which firearms in general are acquired for use in crime." ATF traces guns for a variety of regulatory purposes, not just criminal law enforcement. Perhaps one or more of these states runs a lot of ATF traces for regulatory purposes.
 
I guess gun dealers in those ten states must be hugely stupid, gullible, or greedy because you wouldn't believe the number of people who attempt to strawman guns in Illinois gunshops and are turned away.

Rare is the bird who walks into a gun shop downstate and asks for "Ten Wasr AK rifles, Five Hi-point .40 caliber pistols, and four Mossberg riot guns." while reading from a printed list that isn't going to have shop helpers and proprietors alike start asking a whole bunch of questions.

When a 21 year old girl comes in and asks for, "A Hi-Point 9mm", "Lorcin", "Cobray" or "I want the one that was third from left in the case last week" but can't tell you the make or even caliber, we tend to know what is going on and the sale is refused.

Seriously, I can understand pure greed, but these jackwads don't even try to buy high dollar stuff.
It is always crap guns they want and the ignorance of exactly what they are trying to buy is telling.
 
MAIG was formed 25 Apr 2006 at Gracie Mansion NYC, and includes Boston Mayor Thomas Menino, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley, Washington DC Mayor Adrian Fenty. Fenty and Daley defended the gun bans knocked down by SCOTUS in the Heller 2008 and McDonald[/i] 2010 decisions. The NYC enforcement of the Sullivan Act pistol permit law has been described as a violation of NY state constitution on "due process" and "equal justice under the law" (Suzanne Novak in Fordham Law Review). MAIG ought to be renamed Mostly Democrat Mayors for Arbitrarily Making All Guns Illegal.
 
I just got around to reading MAIG's Trace the Guns "report" and hit issues almost immediately. The second sentence of the thing states very matter of factly

These firearms contribute to the more than 12,000 gun murders in the United States each year.

Yet checking the FBI's site we see that there was only 10,100 - 10,200 some gun murders from 2005 - 07 and that in 2008 it dropped to 9,528 and in 2009 dropped further to 9,146 (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/documents/09shrtbl08.xls) :confused:

Moving a tad further down the first page we see

Gun traces reveal how, where, and by whom each individual crime gun was originally purchased.

I put the originally purchased in italics to draw attention to it. I thought I was reading it wrong; surely they mean the last time the gun legally changed hands on paper. Yet on the next page we see again

the states where those crime guns were originally sold

Again on page 4

In the process, ATF identifies the state where the gun was first sold at retail (“source state”) and the state where the crime gun was recovered at a crime scene (“recovery state”).

So let's say I buy a shotgun in WA state, move to Oregon, sell the shotgun to an Oregon state resident through a FFL, and then later the local cops raid the buyer's place because he was growing weed in the backwoods and during the raid they find the shotgun in a closet. The local cops will submit the serial number [and test fired bullet and casing if it's a rifle or pistol] on up to the BATFE and see if they get a hit for it having been used in a crime or stolen.

That trace would have been part of MAIG's "study". Not only would it have been included in their "study" since it was originally sold in one state and then turned up in another, they keep using the phrases "trafficked" and "crime guns" even though in my example the shotgun was neither trafficked nor sold illegally.

Furthermore on page 4 we see this:

In 2009, of the 238,107 guns that were recovered at crime scenes in the U.S. and submitted for tracing, ATF successfully identified the source states for 145,321 traced guns – or 61% of the attempted traces. As the chart below shows, 43,254 of these guns, or 30%, crossed state lines before they were recovered in crimes.

So this "50% of the crime guns" is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction.
50% of 43,254
43,254 of 145,321
145,321 of 238,107

Let's not forget that the 238,107 is itself a fraction: 238,107 out of the estimated 300 some million firearms in the U.S. (238,107 / 300,000,000 = 0.000794 or 0.0794% of the guns in the U.S. were "crime guns").

50% of 43,254 is 21,627; which means that 21,627 [# of guns that originated in the top ten states] out of 145,321 [# of successful traces] means that 14.88% of the guns that were successfully traced originated in the top ten export states. Remember, this is if you accept MAIG's data, which is already flawed as pointed out earlier.

As someone pointed out earlier, those ten states make up a LOT more than 14.88% of the U.S.'s population, so it's not all that shocking. Honestly, I'd say what's more surprising about this "report" is that 70.24% of the traces were from in state sources, especially considering how people move around these days and people are always selling used guns to out of state sources through a FFL.

After wasting my time on this "report", the one burning question I was left with was "why didn't they just report on the results of the traces ran on the stock at time of arrest of a dude who was selling handguns out of the trunk of his Chevy in gang areas?".
 
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Ole Bloomer's boys kinda got in trouble in WV and got their butts in a sling. Think they might have learned something and we were No. 1 on his list until they messed with gun shows and our politicians. Ain't popular around here or KY either.
 
There are some important things to remember about statistics.

They are just like bikinis in that...
1...what they show is interesting.
2...what they hide is critical.

Makes me grin when I think about that.

Mark
 
Guns are the last thing that is honestly made in USA (stuff that claims to be made in America is usually partially chinese). These states who are exporting this legally purchased product are helping to keep jobs in my country.
 
There are some important things to remember about statistics.

They are just like bikinis in that...
1...what they show is interesting.
2...what they hide is critical.

Makes me grin when I think about that.

Mark

It does depend on the stats though. For example, according to the FBI there was something like 348 homicides committed with rifles in 2009. That's a pretty solid stat, not really anything to twist there. There was 9,500 something gun homicides in 2008 which dropped to 9,100 something in 2009 [the 2007 number was more like 10,100 firearms homicides].

Now where it gets tricky is when you try and claim that the numbers changed because of one particular thing, especially when you're making that claim to push your agenda. For all we know there was a major gang war in 2007 but the gangs made a truce in 08, hence the murder drop. Somebody pushing the socialist agenda might claim the drop was due to some welfare program. We'd be quick to point out that the drop correlated with increased gun sales, especially sales of Evil Black Rifles.

Point is, since the gun control groups can't point to even a casual correlation between gun sales and gun murders in recent years or a correlation between state gun control laws and state murder rates [at least not a correlation that looks good for them], they're stuck with trumpeting a fraction of a fraction of a fraction [in MAIG's "report" and with guns in Mexico] or a correlation between state gun laws and gun deaths [which includes everything from suicides to people shot by the cops].

The funny thing is that the freaking second sentence of MAIG's "study" states something that is just flat out demonstratively false: claiming that there's 12,000 some gun homicides a year when the FBI stats show 10,100 and dropping. Maybe their counting justifiable homicides by police and citizens? :confused:
 
"10 states sell half of imported crime guns"

Let me fix this: 10 states have half the US population. There it's fixed. Duh

P.S. Here's a better one: Most of US population live or work near big cities.......Double Duh
 
Those ten states have 51% of the population. Randomly about half of the guns diverted to criminal hands would come from those states. Nothing unusual about the states, but the use of that stat is strange. The other half of the guns come from 40 states representing 49% of the population. Isn't that what one would call a random distribution?

Gun traces reveal how, where, and by whom each individual crime gun was originally purchased.

On its trace data, the ATF warns that (a) not all crime guns are traced and (b) not all traces are of crime guns. ATF traces guns for reasons other than crime use: one part of ATF is a regulatory taxing agency and they do gather data on gun markets having nothing to do with crime. And on crime guns NOT each individual crime gun is traced.

MAIG's "data" is scarcely improved over classic anti-gun Carl Bakal, a Madison Avenue Advertising executive who wrote "This Very Day a Gun May Kill You" 1959 and "No Right to Bear Arms" 1966. Library Journal nailed Bakal's book as full of truths, half-truths, insinuations and painfully obvious bias.
 
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