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All gun dealers satanic? maybe not

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by bigjim, Jan 9, 2003.

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  1. bigjim

    bigjim Member

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    You want a gun that costs 100 dollars wholesale.

    Add shipping (overnight for handguns ) now the gun costs 120 dollars before it even hits the door.

    Now you have to pay for:
    Salaries, Insurance: Liability, property, medical on you and your employees, Lots of legalized extortion in the forms of fees, rent (triple net), utilities, Expendable supplies, Theft, Breakage, advertising, Vacation time, sick leave and so on. Many businesses have at least 15% overhead.

    So that is another 18 dollars and you still have not made a cent. We are up to 138 dollars for that 100 dollar wholesale gun. Now how much profit are you gonna give the S**thead dealer? Hmmm Well the stock market returns 12 percent over the long haul but since business owners are blood suckers we will let him take home 10 percent? that is another 13.80 cents Now The dealer wants 152.00 dollars for your 100 dollar gun. 52% markup!!!!

    Remember that if your gun costs 1000 dollars EVERY SINGLE cost I mentioned except shipping scales with the price of the gun. ALL small companies survive on making a percentage on the money invested. If you have not owned a business you will not understand this part about cost scaling along with the price of the gun.

    We have a constitutional right to own guns. We do not have a RIGHT to buy them wholesale. The FFL is a form of business License. To get one and keep it you must be selling guns for profit. Its one of the questions on the application, at least it used to be back when I was running a gunshop.

    Its not that dealers don't like to do transfers. Its that doing them for free or cheaply is competeing against themselves and it does not pay the bills. DEALERS are NOT in Business to be your friend.

    Now the gun industry is also to blame for this "perception" issue the public has about the way dealers price their products. The Factorys and Distributors are a bunch of cheap whores. They will pimp wholesale guns to anyone that is able to fill out a application and get an FFL. No other Industry is like this. Try going to city hall getting a busness Licsence and then calling Ford and saying Ok I am a dealer now sell me your cars direct and for the same price as the other Ford Dealers.... HA! Between preditory priceing, whoring distributers and Basement bandit dealers bleeding sales off so they can be big heros to thier cheapskate buddies its amazing there are any gunshops left.

    Here is another undervalued item most of you want for free. The dealers time.... Advice..... Gunsmithing questions.... Mount the scope for free I bought the gun here.....Standing around BS'ing about guns with his staff... Then you walk out with out buying anything. Try this go to the Doctors office walk in and chat up his nurses and office staff for 20 mins then ask him about the wart on your ***. Keeping talking about health related issues all with out a appointment and no exam. Don't pay him anything. Remember you had a appointment last week and you paid then. You plan on getting your flu shots next month, and if he is real good to you untill then, maybe you will let him sell you the shot if he gives you a deep discount as a return customer. The Doc will love you!

    One last pet peeve. Stop bitching about the low quality of counter help. Hiring adults with experience and good skills costs money. it is a fact that most of us are not willing to pay for the good service we feel so entitled to. Seems we are getting what we paid for.

    Go ahead flame away..... Make sure to include "the customer is always right"........ I love that one.
     
  2. mgjohn

    mgjohn Member

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    How true. I love the ones that come in and price a gun and then say that they could have or did buy it for X-dollars less 10 years ago.
     
  3. firestar

    firestar member

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    I don't think anyone is mad at dealers for making a profit, it is the out right cheating and borderline criminal activity that they so often engage in.

    I have seen it several times and I can see how a few bad apples can ruin the bushel so to speak but I think most gun dealers are crooks. If they could, they would cheat the pants off everyone that came in. Not every gun dealer is bad but I think most that I have come in contact with would cheat me if I let them.

    When dealers buy and sell used guns it become most apparent what their true colors really are. I have seen dealers buy used guns from people for rip-off prices and turn around and mark them up 200-400%!:scrutiny: I know they have to make a profit but how much is enough?:cuss:
     
  4. bad_dad_brad

    bad_dad_brad Member

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    I don't know about the rest of you, but my dealer is a good guy, totally honest, and charges only what he has to. I know because I have checked around.
     
  5. che4rev

    che4rev Member

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    I worked in a gunstore, and I can say without a doubt that I am not Satan. We are just good friends.
     
  6. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    I think we all understand that a dealer does have to make a living. The only thing a lot of us complain about is that some seem to try to make it on one gun sale. If a dealer can get a Glock for under $400, but in turn sells it for $600-$650, I can say he made a pretty fair profit.

    If I use his FFl, order myself, pay my own shipping and have the weapon sent to him he makes an average of $25-$40. Just to keep a record of my transaction. A call in? He makes $5.00 for the call.

    As previously mentioned, if I buy a weapon and bring it in for a trade a dealer will give me less than HIS cost. That of course does make sense. So it cost him less than 400 for a Glock. I bought it for $650. He gives me $300-$350 max. He then sells it for $500-$550.

    Shipping? As I understand it dealers do not have to use UPS Overnite. They can use the Postal Service at a a discount.

    Some dealers are great. Some a rip offs. I have one dealer where I can get a new AR15 for 8ish. If I go to Tallahassee to shop I know of the same gun is $1200 .

    Good Shooting
    RED
     
  7. Porter Rockwell

    Porter Rockwell Member

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    My Favorite Peeve!

    And especially now online is "My buddy has an FFL so why can't you match him?? Here, just amke this long distance call to brand X garage distributing and I want the special hand picked for the same low price...
    The kitchen table dealers are the absolute pits and the lowest of the low. They can't even fathom how the lowball prices lower all guns value!
    I just love the net gun guys that completely disassemble and ding up a gun without any intent of buying so they can go back to work (likely a government job!) and post a story to the online community. Has it occured to one and all that using someone else's time for personal gratification is stealing? But that's a whole other topic that likely will never see the light of day.
     
  8. bigjim

    bigjim Member

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    I can tell you have never owned a business. He did not just make 25-40 dollars. He lost a sale that should have made several hundred and worse yet helped another dealer to undercut his price. This lowers the value of all his merchandise and sets a tone and a expectation for future transactions with you.

    By the way I was a redleg for almost 10 years. Way back when a gunner still had to know how to lay a piece, not just ask the computer to do it. Gun One Zero Mils! Gun one is laid!

    Uh...that is what dealers of used things are supossed to do... Buy low as you can and sell as high as you can. Dealers are not any more your friend than a car salesman. This is the way the world works. If you walk in to any store to sell something not knowing what it is worth its your brain that is malfunctioning not the dealers morals.

    Business is business....friends are friends, except when its time to do business then even your friends are just business.
     
  9. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    Had a guy come in that spent an hour comparing a Sig to a Walther P99...after asking him which one he was interested in, he said:

    "I just wanted to handle them, my budddy will order it for me"

    He wont be back :)
     
  10. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    Ahh..I was never fortunate enough to be on the A5s. We did everything manually with the Chief of Smoke out there on the aiming circle and everyone laying their guns the old fashioned way. Then when the collimator went down we shot off aiming poles. As a gunner I had to stand on a stack of FMs just to see through the gunners sight! :D



    Nope. Now someday I hope to get into custom gunsmithing, but as for a gun dealer..HECK NO!:D

    Good Shooting
    RED
     
  11. Bob Locke

    Bob Locke Member

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    Bob's Rule of Thumb

    This is also pretty high on my list of Things That Bother Me, so I developed a rule of thumb. It's pretty simple, and works for me (since I am a HUGE proponent of supporting the local dealer).

    If I see a gun I want on line, I total up what that purchase is going to cost me. I include shipping and the applicable FFL transfer fee (which seems to me to be about $30 on average) in that number. If the local guy is within 10% of that number, then he gets the business. That's my personal "cost" of helping keep the local guy in business. If he's over that, then he gets the transfer fee only.

    Works for me; doesn't have to for you.
     
  12. raz-0

    raz-0 Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    The Factorys and Distributors are a bunch of cheap whores. They will pimp wholesale guns to anyone that is able to fill out a application and get an FFL. No other Industry is like this.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Sorry man, but with the exception of cars, ALMOST EVERYTHING retail is like this. Aftermarket car parts, stereo equipment, computer parts, candy, knives, martial arts equipment, musical instruments, games, and many more. You go to your local municipal complex, get teh application for incorporating in the simplest form, and get your tax ID. You then, by and large, have access to the world of wholesale. If you think it is otherwise, you are grossly deluding yourself. About the only things you can't do this easily with are things you have to be a authorized or certified reseller to distribute. These are usually brands, and by and large involves acting as both a customer support representative, and warranty center. Much like car dealers. If I am not mistaken, that is NOT the basic distribution model gun manufacturers use. And to make your analogy even less meaningful, there ARE people who get incorporated, DON'T become a dealer, and DO buy cars from Ford and resell them. There aren't a lot, but there is definitely one example not too far from me, and they are quite definitely Fords.

    What you see most people getting pissed off about on the forums revolves mainly around the attitudes of gun store owners, operators, and staff. If you do represent that group, read your own post and figure out why? I might also suggest stopping by another retail establishment that revolves around a different product and chatting with the manager. Much of what you complain about are simply the hassle of retail.

    Or from the comfort of your own computer, try http://www.actsofgord.com/ It should at least give you a laugh.
     
  13. bigjim

    bigjim Member

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    Wildalaska I hear ya!

    I had this little asian dude came in one day, barely could see over the counter and his english forced you to really concentrate to understand him. I spent over a hour with him answering questions over and over again, showed him at least twenty guns. He left, came back in on another day and I had one of my guys help him. Almost 2 hours still no sale. He came back in two more times. Then about 15 days go by and he shows up with a brand new Sig 226 purchased from a "discount" dealer in the city. Wanted me to show him how to take it apart.

    He did not seem to like how I "helped" him. I took the gun all the way down just as fast as I could hideing the moves from him as best I could. Put his parts in the box and kicked him out of the store and told him never to come back or I would have him arrested for tresspassing!
    :evil:
     
  14. Navy joe

    Navy joe Member

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    Yes Jim, you're right. We should all enter your store and bow to you as the humble little money bringers we are.

    -After we have spent money in your store many times we should grovel for the privelege to be treated like swill because you are truly great.

    All businesses get their share of customers who suck. This is no excuse for you to treat us all like crap. I've done face to face work in other things than guns, you have to treat the customer as a knowledgable equal until they prove otherwise. A good salesman has a little of each expert, teacher, product user, and friend in him. Local business of all stripe will be killed by e-commerce unless they can offer location, a decent inventory, services(Like FFL for private transfers or gun cleaning, classes),
    and an atmosphere that makes people want to drop in.

    You could be an angry man with a quiet bldg full of guns if the attitude of your first post is what you give the customers.
     
  15. firestar

    firestar member

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    Quote:
    "If I see a gun I want on line, I total up what that purchase is going to cost me. I include shipping and the applicable FFL transfer fee (which seems to me to be about $30 on average) in that number. If the local guy is within 10% of that number, then he gets the business. That's my personal "cost" of helping keep the local guy in business. If he's over that, then he gets the transfer fee only."

    That is about what I do! I will pay a little more just to avoid the hassel of mail order and not being able to see what I am buying (esp. in used guns).

    Also, it is not just the money that makes people want to shop online, it is the selection and the convinence. Don't take it personally when someone buys a gun online, maybe they didn't have the time to personally go into every gun store in the area or maybe they couldn't find the gun locally. The main reason I buy most of my guns online is, the poor atitude of gun dealers!
    :neener:
     
  16. Freedom in theSkies

    Freedom in theSkies Member

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    You know....
    I can relate to some of what BigJim is saying. I have a small shop in a small town and it bugs the ***** out of me when people come in to ask you about an item, talk to you about it for half an hour, then go to WALLY WORLD or one of the big Discount stores and buy it there. Like I have nothing better to do!
    Yep, I might see them again... And I will ALWAYS do what I can to help them, because I am representing the companies product that I am trying to sell.
    It's just really hard for a small business owner to get over the fact that consumers will come in to get the background on a product, yet they go to the box store to buy it and maybe save 50 cents ona 30 dollar item. I suppose it's because the box stores don't generally have qualified personelle at their sales counters.
    Well, I feel better now... Hmmm the leftover Kraft dinner is almost heated up... I think I'll go get some...
    :banghead:
     
  17. bigjim

    bigjim Member

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    huh?

    I re-read my first post. I made no mention of my attitude for customers but instead talked at length about customers attitudes towards business people, and about flaws in the gun industry. Not sure how you could have possibly gotten confused about that.
     
  18. bigjim

    bigjim Member

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    Raz-o has a point.

    You may be right and the problems I outlined maybe more wide spread than I suggested. What I don't understand is how you seem to feel that makes it ok?

    Its like saying since one out of every four adult men in America likes to molest children. Its so common there is no point being mad about it?

    I think the behavior and expectations of the public is becomeing more and more debased with every passing second. The public sucks.
     
  19. PATH

    PATH Member

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    Some really are.:evil:

    If you find a fair and honest gun dealer then stick with him!
     
  20. larry_minn

    larry_minn Member

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    I have local gun shop I like to visit. Thing is while only 40 miles away I only get there 4X a year. I doubt I have been there two times in a row where I have not bought some ammo or stuff. Funny thing is he has some left handed holsters that fit a few of my not so common guns. After seeing them there for over a year I asked if he could give me a deal on them. "Heck no those are quality holsters" He still has them as of Oct 2002. He has 4 black for 39/52 S&W and two brn for same gun all left hand.
    I used to visit a shop in Twin citie. I bought three guns there. I would stop in monthly and often just look stuff over and maybe handle two guns max. Bought lots of ammo/stuff. Heck bought a drill press from owner. New owner was sterotypical gun dealer so I don't go back. Other store I never bought a gun at but some ammo/gear and helped him make a few sales when he was busy. I felt bad when he decided to quit selling guns. Just never had what I wanted.
     
  21. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    When planning on transferring through a dealer, I always ask him if he can beat the price the other guy is giving me. Obviously on a person to person sale, that's not very likely. But when buying from dealers, he has the same opportunity to track down a wholesaler and make the same profit the other dealer is going to make from my purchase.

    However, if there is a small price difference, including guns at the local WallyWorld, I will pay the small difference to the dealer and buy from him. I WANT him to stay in business.
     
  22. Pendragon

    Pendragon Member

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    caveat emptor
    supply and demand
    whatever the market will bear

    The 2nd Ammendment does not exempt anyone from market forces.

    You should never get mad at someone for charging a price you disagree with. Perhaps he is waiting for a sucker. That is the sellers right.
     
  23. MitchSchaft

    MitchSchaft member

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    It was implied.
     
  24. dave

    dave Member

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    "Dealers are not any more your friend than a car salesman. This is the way the world works." by bigjim


    Ok. I have to agree with you there. So why do you get your panties in a wad when you aren't treated as one? You cry about the "dinner table FFL holders" and how they are the scum of the earth. Why? Isn't that just the way the world works?

    You say, in a round about way, that you're not there just to "look out" for our best interests. That fine with me, but then you whine like a school girl because we don't look out for yours. Seems like you think it ok to say that you're in busniess to make as much money off us as you can, that it's just "good busniess". But, when we say that we want to save as much money as we can, we're just a bunch of cheap bastards.

    Either your busniess is doing fine or it's going down the tubes. If it's fine, then what's your grip, is it that you just want more? If it's going down the tubes, well......imagine my suprise.
     
  25. RoyRapoport

    RoyRapoport Member

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    I'm a huge believer in excellent customer service and it being worthwhile to support people who give you such service. As an example, I will soon be paying approximately 30% more for my DSL service because I'll be getting it from a bunch of hard-core geeks in a small coop than from my local giant telco.

    But I know what I'm getting out of it -- I'm getting the ability to call these people and get them on the phone *NOW*. I'm getting the ability to talk to people who really know their stuff. I'm getting an enthusiasm for the job and a willingness to go the extra mile.

    This is exactly the sort of thing that I've seen from John Jardine, for example, and why I don't intend to ever give my 1911 gunsmithing business to anyone but him.

    I'm not expecting a gun dealer to be my friend. I don't expect the gun dealer to expect *me* to be his friend. I'm not going to waste his time for hours at a time if I'm not going to buy the gun through him, but I have no problem coming over to see the gun, at least, and figure out if I want the gun and if I want it from him.

    For what it's worth, with the exception of exactly one gun, I've purchased all my guns from my local dealer or store. In the case of this one gun -- the Kahr P9 -- the best price my local guy could give me was $586 (including tax). My costs by going out-of-state: $421. That's about a 30% difference. The work that my dealer had done: Whatever research it took him to quote me the price on the phone. You know what? After doing about $4000 of business with him over the last few years, I'm comfortable with him not getting this one.

    The last time I went to one of the biggest gun stores in the area (Traders Sports in San Leandro), I was helping a friend of mine purchase a Glock. The clerk did not know about the Glock recall issue. This strikes me as problematic.

    -roy
     
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