Cannonball888
Member
Are all guns outlawed in Austrailia or just handguns? It seems to me it would be difficult to outlaw hunting. A guy in Austrailia wants to buy my bipod, and I didn't know quite how to respond.
All guns outlawed in Australia?
- Thread starter Cannonball888
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Hawk
Member
It's not even all handguns.
Go to STI's site, navigate to the Trojan and check out the Aus and NZ shooter excerpt. Evidently, whatever's outlawed, that particular STI is an approved replacement.
Our Oz members can fill you in on the particulars - I'm betting you're going to be pretty surprised.
Go to STI's site, navigate to the Trojan and check out the Aus and NZ shooter excerpt. Evidently, whatever's outlawed, that particular STI is an approved replacement.
Our Oz members can fill you in on the particulars - I'm betting you're going to be pretty surprised.
Cannonball888
Member
Thanks, but I went to STI's site and didn't find any link called the Trojan.
WardenWolf
member
Generally, only farmers or people living in remote areas are allowed to have guns (and only shotguns or rifles), then only for protection from predators. Self-defense is not a valid reason to own or use a gun. A lot of the Australian guns are wildcats based on the British .303. The .303 round and firearms for them were outlawed, so they modified their guns to bypass this very specific prohibition. Allowing new guns in-country is more to allow replacement of worn out guns for legitimate users, and the allowed weapons have to be approved.
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Cannonball888
Member
Thanks for the info. Self-defense is not a valid reason? It boggles the mind how Austrailian citizens could allow this to happen to them.
WardenWolf
member
Remember that Australia used to belong to Great Britain. Great Britain's civilians are still technically subjects, and their laws reflect this (as do the laws of their former colonies). It has been said that an armed civilian is a citizen. An unarmed civilian is a subject. Even in developed countries, this same correlation holds true. Australia's citizens are viewed as subjects of their government, and the government thus seeks to control them and decide for them what they, in their detached-from-reality ivory tower, think is best.
bonza
Member
There is alot of misinformation out there on the state of gun ownership in Australia. I am a former Australian citizen now living in the U.S., but go back to visit fairly often, primarily to shoot as it happens.
Australia is comprised of six states & two territories, each have slightly differing gun laws but the general gist is something like this:
Semi-auto rifles are prohibited, as are semi-auto & pump action shotguns, though there are some exemptions from this for various reasons eg. agricultural and professional (rabbit/kangaroo) shooters. Bolt action, lever action, pump action (rifles), single shot, side/side, & over/under shotguns are still quite available & legal in the same models & calibers/guages as we see here in the U.S. Handguns in Australia have been restricted for many years, & generally require the owner to be an active/participating member of a pistol club, which requires a minimum number of shooting competitions a year to keep the license. I believe calibers over .38/.357 are no longer allowed, though again, I believe certain exemptions may be be available for certain shooting disciplines, ie. IHMSA, etc. , but I'm not 100% on that.
The use of firearms for personal/home protection is very much frowned upon by the powers-that-be, in fact all firearms MUST be locked away when not in actual use at the range or in the field, even when being transported in a vehicle. Ammunition, too, must be kept in a seperate locked container. Back in the 1970s I knew a handful of people who had permits to carry a concealed handgun, it was rare then & I would think almost non-existant now. On the other hand, a friend of mine used to be a clerk for the Australian Post Office in the 1970s & would sometimes have to run to the bank to pick up money for payroll or whatever, his supervisor would just hand him a Browning .32 auto to put in his pocket while he was out on those errands.....times have certainly changed!
Competition shooting & hunting are both very popular in Australia, in fact I could participate in many more shooting competitions, on a more regular basis, if I lived in Australia than I have available to me here in the U.S., but then again there aren't many other reasons to own guns there other than to compete or to hunt.
The old .303 wildcats are pretty much a thing of the past. They were mostly a post-WW2 expediency, due to the lack of new sporting arms in the post war years. You'd see them in .22/.303, .243/.303, .25/.303, .270/.303, & even .375/.303. As I mentioned earlier, Australians now have all the standard & latest calibers we have, so you rarely come across any of the old .303-based rifles & ammo.
I think the way firearms ownership has gone in Australia over the last fifteen or so years is tragic, but they are in far better shape than many people would have you believe.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Australia is comprised of six states & two territories, each have slightly differing gun laws but the general gist is something like this:
Semi-auto rifles are prohibited, as are semi-auto & pump action shotguns, though there are some exemptions from this for various reasons eg. agricultural and professional (rabbit/kangaroo) shooters. Bolt action, lever action, pump action (rifles), single shot, side/side, & over/under shotguns are still quite available & legal in the same models & calibers/guages as we see here in the U.S. Handguns in Australia have been restricted for many years, & generally require the owner to be an active/participating member of a pistol club, which requires a minimum number of shooting competitions a year to keep the license. I believe calibers over .38/.357 are no longer allowed, though again, I believe certain exemptions may be be available for certain shooting disciplines, ie. IHMSA, etc. , but I'm not 100% on that.
The use of firearms for personal/home protection is very much frowned upon by the powers-that-be, in fact all firearms MUST be locked away when not in actual use at the range or in the field, even when being transported in a vehicle. Ammunition, too, must be kept in a seperate locked container. Back in the 1970s I knew a handful of people who had permits to carry a concealed handgun, it was rare then & I would think almost non-existant now. On the other hand, a friend of mine used to be a clerk for the Australian Post Office in the 1970s & would sometimes have to run to the bank to pick up money for payroll or whatever, his supervisor would just hand him a Browning .32 auto to put in his pocket while he was out on those errands.....times have certainly changed!
Competition shooting & hunting are both very popular in Australia, in fact I could participate in many more shooting competitions, on a more regular basis, if I lived in Australia than I have available to me here in the U.S., but then again there aren't many other reasons to own guns there other than to compete or to hunt.
The old .303 wildcats are pretty much a thing of the past. They were mostly a post-WW2 expediency, due to the lack of new sporting arms in the post war years. You'd see them in .22/.303, .243/.303, .25/.303, .270/.303, & even .375/.303. As I mentioned earlier, Australians now have all the standard & latest calibers we have, so you rarely come across any of the old .303-based rifles & ammo.
I think the way firearms ownership has gone in Australia over the last fifteen or so years is tragic, but they are in far better shape than many people would have you believe.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Australian law is complicated, nothing is ever "outlawed" so much as it is restricted beyond the means of the average person.
They are not technicaly outlawed because government contractors and others can still get military hardware, full auto firearms, semi-auto arms etc with the proper license.
Australia has multiple license types.
The types of licenses the people who aquire them ususaly get only permit things like SxS and O/U shotguns. Even those only ususaly go to farmers in rural areas, though some others manage to go through the proper hoops.
Pump action and semi auto firearms require a license most have no hope of aquiring.
Category A licenses owned by some in rural areas allow airgun longarms (bb gun etc no handgun types) non pump or semi-auto shotguns, paintball guns, and non semi-auto rimfire rifles and airsoft guns.
Category B allow non semi-auto centerfire rifles, and some muzzle loaders.
The finaly category a gun desiring citizen has hope of aquiring with many hoops and red tape is a:
Category H allowing only certain caliber pistols (primarily those under .38 caliber.)
That ususaly requires long term enrollment in a club. There is minimum size requirements, minimum barel lengths, 10 round capacity maximum for the handguns and tons of restrictions.
A category H license is required to legaly own a pistol sized airgun as well.
The licenses require government inspection of government approved safes twice a year. They must be bolted to the foundation or weigh a minimum weight.
Different weapon categories require even bigger tough more expensive safes.
A category C license is where semi auto rifle and pump shotgun long arms start. They are limited to 10 or 5 round magazine capacity respectively, and nearly impossible for most people to get.
Category D are unrestricted capacity long arms in semi-auto and pump and almost nobody has them except those who make a living shooting.
Most people will be unable to get more than a category B license. If you want to belong to a sport shooting club and go through various red tape it may be possible to get yourself a category H and own a handgun.
Storage requirements when not in use are much more restrictive as well greatly limiting potential self defense, requiring firearms and ammunition stored seperately.
Each territory can have slightly different requirements, but they are generaly similar.
Before 1996 people in portions of Autralia had greater firearm righ..erm, privelidges than even people in the USA.
In Tasmania for example you could easily aquire full auto and select fire military arms.
In a few years they had far less.
QUEENSLAND:
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/
NEW SOUTH WALES:
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_issues/firearms
VICTORIA:
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=111
SOUTH AUSTRALIA:
http://www.sapolice.sa.gov.au/sapol/services/firearms_weapons.jsp
WEST AUSTRALIA:
http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Services/FirearmsandWeapons.asp?Firearms
TASMANIA:
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/permits/firearms
NORTHERN TERRITORY:
http://www.nt.gov.au/pfes/police/services/firearms/index.html
AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY:
http://www.afp.gov.au/act/firearms
They are not technicaly outlawed because government contractors and others can still get military hardware, full auto firearms, semi-auto arms etc with the proper license.
Australia has multiple license types.
The types of licenses the people who aquire them ususaly get only permit things like SxS and O/U shotguns. Even those only ususaly go to farmers in rural areas, though some others manage to go through the proper hoops.
Pump action and semi auto firearms require a license most have no hope of aquiring.
Category A licenses owned by some in rural areas allow airgun longarms (bb gun etc no handgun types) non pump or semi-auto shotguns, paintball guns, and non semi-auto rimfire rifles and airsoft guns.
Category B allow non semi-auto centerfire rifles, and some muzzle loaders.
The finaly category a gun desiring citizen has hope of aquiring with many hoops and red tape is a:
Category H allowing only certain caliber pistols (primarily those under .38 caliber.)
That ususaly requires long term enrollment in a club. There is minimum size requirements, minimum barel lengths, 10 round capacity maximum for the handguns and tons of restrictions.
A category H license is required to legaly own a pistol sized airgun as well.
The licenses require government inspection of government approved safes twice a year. They must be bolted to the foundation or weigh a minimum weight.
Different weapon categories require even bigger tough more expensive safes.
A category C license is where semi auto rifle and pump shotgun long arms start. They are limited to 10 or 5 round magazine capacity respectively, and nearly impossible for most people to get.
Category D are unrestricted capacity long arms in semi-auto and pump and almost nobody has them except those who make a living shooting.
Most people will be unable to get more than a category B license. If you want to belong to a sport shooting club and go through various red tape it may be possible to get yourself a category H and own a handgun.
Storage requirements when not in use are much more restrictive as well greatly limiting potential self defense, requiring firearms and ammunition stored seperately.
Each territory can have slightly different requirements, but they are generaly similar.
Before 1996 people in portions of Autralia had greater firearm righ..erm, privelidges than even people in the USA.
In Tasmania for example you could easily aquire full auto and select fire military arms.
In a few years they had far less.
QUEENSLAND:
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/
NEW SOUTH WALES:
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_issues/firearms
VICTORIA:
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=111
SOUTH AUSTRALIA:
http://www.sapolice.sa.gov.au/sapol/services/firearms_weapons.jsp
WEST AUSTRALIA:
http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Services/FirearmsandWeapons.asp?Firearms
TASMANIA:
http://www.police.tas.gov.au/permits/firearms
NORTHERN TERRITORY:
http://www.nt.gov.au/pfes/police/services/firearms/index.html
AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY:
http://www.afp.gov.au/act/firearms
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Prince Yamato
Member
From the Tasmanian website:
Bull...
Bull...
And Tasmania is the most conservative pro firearm portion of Australia.
The official forms of course do not tell reality on the ground, just like someone outside of the USA would not understand the official NFA process in the USA and the associated limitations, and costs just by seeing the forms.
Owning and using are also completely different and actualy using firearms even recretionaly, and transportation of them has a whole set of associated laws as well not simply explained by the forms.
Since all licenses are discretionary since police must approve the storage twice a year and the firearms themselves almost no catagory C or D licenses are in reality issued. Yet by looking at the forms alone it looks like you could just apply for one.
Hawk
Member
STI Complete Guns -> Single Stack/Trojan5.0 -> Read about the Trojan -> Asia Pacific -> Australian and New Zealand Handgun (PDF).
Fred West
Member
And how do you propose to stop it. Their government, any government, can do what they want and there's nothing you can do about it short of voting them out at the next election.
Fred.
So, with the restricions in mind, what are the popular and available firearms in Australia at this time?
What are the pricing structures for these firearms and what is the pricing and restrictions on ammunition?
If keeping a firearm for defense against predators isn't "self defense" then I don't know what is.
Even with the seeming popularity of meth cooking in my part of the world, one is far more likely to encounter a feral dog or a rabid raccoon or skunk than a miscreant human bent intent on doing harm.
I also consider miscreant humans bent on doing harm to another human in the same realm as a predator animal and will deal with them in the same fashion.
I imagine the same view applies in Australia.
What are the pricing structures for these firearms and what is the pricing and restrictions on ammunition?
If keeping a firearm for defense against predators isn't "self defense" then I don't know what is.
Even with the seeming popularity of meth cooking in my part of the world, one is far more likely to encounter a feral dog or a rabid raccoon or skunk than a miscreant human bent intent on doing harm.
I also consider miscreant humans bent on doing harm to another human in the same realm as a predator animal and will deal with them in the same fashion.
I imagine the same view applies in Australia.
bonza
Member
Here's a link to a gun shop near Sydney. You can check out what's available down there & the costs. For comparison sake, as of today (3/15), US$1 would buy you AUS$1.53. Speaking with my friends in Australia it seems their wages for comparable jobs are a bit lower than here, plus their taxes are much higher.
I think this refers to the remark about farmers being able to get licenses for certain types of firearms that may not be generally available (ie. semi-auto rifles). The firearms aren't intended to be used to defend the farmer against attack by wild animals, but to eradicate the threat, either physical attack or competitive grazing, to his livestock by shooting the wild pigs, dogs, donkeys, horses, goats, camels, etc.
I just got a NIB Austrailian M10 1a which is a Enfield bolt aucton jungle carbine modern copy. Comes in 7.62X39 aNd uses AK magazines.
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/M10-B1.shtm
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/M10-B1.shtm
Yankee
Member
Australian Gun Laws
Zoogster pretty much nails it in his overview of our laws. Despite the knee-jerk response to the Port Arthur massacre, shooting is still a very popular sport here. In fact, Australia's equivalent of the NRA has seen a steady increase in membership and the number of firearms being registered is also on the increase. Losing many of our gun rights has not been the death of shooting sports and hunting but it is terrible to think about how good we once had things and how quickly and easy those freedoms were taken away.
I'll just clarify a few things that haven't been correctly described. Self-defence is not an satisfactory or sufficient justification for obtaining any class of firearm in Australia but that does not mean that once that weapon has been acquired, that it cannot legally be used in a self-defence situation. We have had a number of examples over the years where people have used firearms during home invasions and who have not been imprisoned. On the other hand, I know of at least one case where a home-owner shot and paralysed a man trying to steal his dope crop and he had the book thrown at him for using lethal force in a non-life-threatening situation (and for growing drugs).
Handguns including semi-autos are legal here and pistol shooting is a popular sport. However, the process to get and keep one is very onerous and expensive. Everyone must have a legal reason for acquiring a pistol and as previously mentioned, self-defence does not count. Unless you're a farmer or security gaurd, your reason will have to be "Club Use" meaning that you want one because you plan to participate in competition shooting. Whatever your reason is, you send away your application to the Police and after a background check, they will send you a letter saying that you are authorised to attend training at an approved training facility. My club ran the course for me and it took ten one-hour sessions with an instructor and cost something like $300. Most other clubs run the same course over a weekend. Once you have completed the course, you then have to join a licenced pistol club (mine cost $250) and the club then sends a letter to the Police to confirm that you have successfully passsed the course and that you are a financial member of the club. After a minimum of 28 days, your licence will come in the mail which requires a photograph and another $60. You are then free to purchase a handgun but that will come with another 28 day waiting period and for the first six months of your licence, the handgun must be stored at the club. After six months, you can take it home but it must be stored in a locked safe when not in use. OK, so that's good, you finally have your handgun at home (keep in mind that there is a 10-shot capacity limit). In order to keep that hnadgun, you must now attend a minimum of six competitive shoots a year and remain a paid-up member of the club. If you fail to pay your dues or attend your six events, the police will be on to you in no time demanding that you surrender the weapon and your licence.
Zoogster pretty much nails it in his overview of our laws. Despite the knee-jerk response to the Port Arthur massacre, shooting is still a very popular sport here. In fact, Australia's equivalent of the NRA has seen a steady increase in membership and the number of firearms being registered is also on the increase. Losing many of our gun rights has not been the death of shooting sports and hunting but it is terrible to think about how good we once had things and how quickly and easy those freedoms were taken away.
I'll just clarify a few things that haven't been correctly described. Self-defence is not an satisfactory or sufficient justification for obtaining any class of firearm in Australia but that does not mean that once that weapon has been acquired, that it cannot legally be used in a self-defence situation. We have had a number of examples over the years where people have used firearms during home invasions and who have not been imprisoned. On the other hand, I know of at least one case where a home-owner shot and paralysed a man trying to steal his dope crop and he had the book thrown at him for using lethal force in a non-life-threatening situation (and for growing drugs).
Handguns including semi-autos are legal here and pistol shooting is a popular sport. However, the process to get and keep one is very onerous and expensive. Everyone must have a legal reason for acquiring a pistol and as previously mentioned, self-defence does not count. Unless you're a farmer or security gaurd, your reason will have to be "Club Use" meaning that you want one because you plan to participate in competition shooting. Whatever your reason is, you send away your application to the Police and after a background check, they will send you a letter saying that you are authorised to attend training at an approved training facility. My club ran the course for me and it took ten one-hour sessions with an instructor and cost something like $300. Most other clubs run the same course over a weekend. Once you have completed the course, you then have to join a licenced pistol club (mine cost $250) and the club then sends a letter to the Police to confirm that you have successfully passsed the course and that you are a financial member of the club. After a minimum of 28 days, your licence will come in the mail which requires a photograph and another $60. You are then free to purchase a handgun but that will come with another 28 day waiting period and for the first six months of your licence, the handgun must be stored at the club. After six months, you can take it home but it must be stored in a locked safe when not in use. OK, so that's good, you finally have your handgun at home (keep in mind that there is a 10-shot capacity limit). In order to keep that hnadgun, you must now attend a minimum of six competitive shoots a year and remain a paid-up member of the club. If you fail to pay your dues or attend your six events, the police will be on to you in no time demanding that you surrender the weapon and your licence.
I had a friend from India who was studying hospitality management in Sydney as a foreign student. He told me that the crime in the city is out of control. Knifings are very regular. One night he was on the subway or whatever the public transit system they use over there is, and a group of Lebanese thugs came and sat around him. THey then stuck a knife to his throat. and one guy punched him. Knowing he was defenseless and that a knife against a group of well armed thugs wasn't go to work for him, he was forced to relinquish his wallet and watch. He had a gold necklace that was part of his Hindu religion that his grandfather or someone gave him. He lied and said it was a cheap piece of junk that he found at a market in India and offred to give it to them. Thankfully, they were not so smart and let him keep that.
I just want to thank you Government of Australia for allowing criminals ot have free reign in your cities and to imprison your subjects (Civilians) to a state of servitude and fear. Good job making Australia a dangerous place to travel at night and helping empower thieves and tyrants in your country.
WHile these bereaucratic dogs are hiding in their big mansions guarded by men holding fully automatic machine guns, their citizens are forced to hide themselves from the power of thugs and a police force who probably just doesn't give enough of a damn about them.
I just want to thank you Government of Australia for allowing criminals ot have free reign in your cities and to imprison your subjects (Civilians) to a state of servitude and fear. Good job making Australia a dangerous place to travel at night and helping empower thieves and tyrants in your country.
WHile these bereaucratic dogs are hiding in their big mansions guarded by men holding fully automatic machine guns, their citizens are forced to hide themselves from the power of thugs and a police force who probably just doesn't give enough of a damn about them.
I can vouch for that, although firearm deaths have dropped slightly (a trend research indicates began as early as 1992 in any case) violent crime rates have risen dramatically, particularly in urban areas. In the suburban area I lived when I began study at university we had robberies and sexual assaults on at least a weekly basis ...which was something to give pause on the early morning walks to work.
As for how the media typically treats the issue of firearm ownership over here ...well, I stumbled across this the other week: http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25157413-5001021,00.html
Also, as this is my first post (having lurked for about a year) I'd like to say hello to everyone. :waves: I picked up target shooting with pistols about two years ago after writing an essay on firearm laws and have in the last nine months begun shooting rifles.
As for how the media typically treats the issue of firearm ownership over here ...well, I stumbled across this the other week: http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25157413-5001021,00.html
Also, as this is my first post (having lurked for about a year) I'd like to say hello to everyone. :waves: I picked up target shooting with pistols about two years ago after writing an essay on firearm laws and have in the last nine months begun shooting rifles.
Yankee
Member
As an American, I'd love to believe that we are not only a safer place than other similar industrialised nations, but that safety is largely attributable to the second amendment. Unfortunately, I believe that this is not the case. I have spent many years living abroad in both Europe and Australia and the reality is that neither of those places is anywhere near as dangerous as many of our large American cities. Here are just a few examples I'll use as evidence. Data is the most recent I could find and I have focused on just Australia because that was the reason for this thread in the first place. Stats come from this site but citations are given to the original surveys.
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime
In 2002, 16204 Americans were murdered compared to 302 Australians. America's population is fourteen times larger than Australia's but the number of murders 53 times higher. This means that on any given day, an American is nearly three times more likely to die by the hands of one of their fellow citizens.
An American is 9.5 times more likely on any given day to be murdered with a firearm than an Australian. Keep in mind that this is deliberate killing and not hunting accidents, suicide, range mishaps etc.
420,637 robberies were reported in the US compared to 23,314 in Australia meaning that Americans are 20% more likely to be robbed.
One percent of Australian women reported that they were victims of a rape in 2002 compared to 0.4% of Americans meaning that American women were just 0.6% less likely to suffer sexual assault.
Americans are 7% more likely to suffer a violent physical assault.
Australians have the highest rate of car theft in the world with an Australian nearly twice as likely to have their car stolen than an American.
America leads the world in incarcerating it's citizens with more prisoners than Communist China despite the fact that China has 4.5 times more people. Americans are 6 times more likely to be in prison than Australians.
As I said at the start, I wish we could say that America is the safest place in the world and it's as a direct result of our firearm freedoms, but reality says otherwise. Personally I believe that much of this is cultural. I grew up in a community saturated with firearms and crime was unheard of. I've been to places like Switzerland and Israel where every citizen is armed and yet the crime rate is nothing like it is in America. I've been to places in Africa where the only firearms are in the hands of the government and yet rape and murder is out of control. Rather than access to firearms, I suspect that the strongest driver of crime in America is things like extreme poverty, drug dependence, poor education, mass immigration from the third world, lack of social cohesion, absence of male role-models, moral-free education etc
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime
In 2002, 16204 Americans were murdered compared to 302 Australians. America's population is fourteen times larger than Australia's but the number of murders 53 times higher. This means that on any given day, an American is nearly three times more likely to die by the hands of one of their fellow citizens.
An American is 9.5 times more likely on any given day to be murdered with a firearm than an Australian. Keep in mind that this is deliberate killing and not hunting accidents, suicide, range mishaps etc.
420,637 robberies were reported in the US compared to 23,314 in Australia meaning that Americans are 20% more likely to be robbed.
One percent of Australian women reported that they were victims of a rape in 2002 compared to 0.4% of Americans meaning that American women were just 0.6% less likely to suffer sexual assault.
Americans are 7% more likely to suffer a violent physical assault.
Australians have the highest rate of car theft in the world with an Australian nearly twice as likely to have their car stolen than an American.
America leads the world in incarcerating it's citizens with more prisoners than Communist China despite the fact that China has 4.5 times more people. Americans are 6 times more likely to be in prison than Australians.
As I said at the start, I wish we could say that America is the safest place in the world and it's as a direct result of our firearm freedoms, but reality says otherwise. Personally I believe that much of this is cultural. I grew up in a community saturated with firearms and crime was unheard of. I've been to places like Switzerland and Israel where every citizen is armed and yet the crime rate is nothing like it is in America. I've been to places in Africa where the only firearms are in the hands of the government and yet rape and murder is out of control. Rather than access to firearms, I suspect that the strongest driver of crime in America is things like extreme poverty, drug dependence, poor education, mass immigration from the third world, lack of social cohesion, absence of male role-models, moral-free education etc
moooose102
Member
" self defense is not a valid reason"
so, that means that an austraulian citizens life, or the lives of their loved ones are not worth protecting according to the government, right? THAT IS GARBAGE!
i am beginning to think the whole world is going MAD!
so, that means that an austraulian citizens life, or the lives of their loved ones are not worth protecting according to the government, right? THAT IS GARBAGE!
i am beginning to think the whole world is going MAD!Yankee
Member
The crime figures I gave are rates of crime meaning that they are adjusted for the differences in our population. As for the areas of our countries, the continent of Australia and the contiguous United States are almost exactly the same size.
And America is different how?. Despite being identified as an ideal site for a penal colony, the overwhelming majority of Australia's first settlers were free men and women. My State for example never had any prisoners from England and is a chunk of land bigger than Texas.
No - self defence is not considered a valid reason to purchase a firearm. Self defence is still a valid principle in our laws. I can legally take another person's life with any of my firearms if a jury believes that I did it in self defence.
mljdeckard
Member
Self-defense is still an accepted defense in Australia, (for now) however, it is no longer a valid defense in Britain.
Yankee touches some legitimate points.
Yankee touches some legitimate points.
Yankee, America is a violent place for some portions of the population. Most murders involve those in the drug trade and gang members.
Even removing all gun related murders, which are a lot because the best tool is often used for the job, you find the US has a higher murder rate than the UK.
If statistics and effectiveness are what matters you can adopt that logic ot its conclusion.
You can logicly follow the reduction in crime logic all the way to the point of practicly locking every citizen up, and having no rights which limit police authority. Or having everyone under constant surveillance with paramilitary teams ready to act at any moment.
Individual "rights" get in the way of absolute effectiveness.
Absolute efficiency, and few legal hurdles for a government facing any problem have the best statistics.
China operates on such principles. Efficiency and statistics. The ends justify the means.
In fact if you strongly reduce the first Amendment (freedom of expression, speech etc) you can greatly limit all negative subcultures, and reduce violence tremendously.
Having a much larger impact on all crime than any limits on the 2nd Amendment.
No gangster or criminal glorification, no movies where the criminals succeed or are not killed or captured etc.
By restricting freedom and creating strong tyranny you can become absolutely efficient. You can even easily resolve issues like overcrowding by mandating infantacide for any newborns over the legal limit. China knows.
Imprison people who question the tactics that lead to absolute efficiency and success.
A police state with no privacy rights, and no due process is much more efficient.
Fortunately we had some founding fathers who cared more about idealogy and pinciples of liberty and freedom than statistics and efficiency.
A nation where the individual and thier rights are more important than collective efficiency.
Where people from around the world would flock to long before a good quality of life was normal in America.
For the average American citizen they have far more freedoms than most of the world and not much more danger either. Unless they make the free choice to be part of the subcultures that are involved in most murders the national statistics do not apply to them.
If you adjust the statistics to remove such drug dealers and gang members the rates are actualy lower than for similar people in much of Europe also not drug dealers or gang members.
A person not involved in such subcultures is actualy more likely to get randomly attacked in portions of Europe than in the United States.
Places where "fun hobbies" like the "happy slap" exist. Activities that would get thugs and miscreants killed in the US.
Even if that was not the case, you only live once. A shorter life of freedom would be better than a long life on your knees. Greater control over individual destiny cannot be replaced by generalized statistics.
Even removing all gun related murders, which are a lot because the best tool is often used for the job, you find the US has a higher murder rate than the UK.
If statistics and effectiveness are what matters you can adopt that logic ot its conclusion.
You can logicly follow the reduction in crime logic all the way to the point of practicly locking every citizen up, and having no rights which limit police authority. Or having everyone under constant surveillance with paramilitary teams ready to act at any moment.
Individual "rights" get in the way of absolute effectiveness.
Absolute efficiency, and few legal hurdles for a government facing any problem have the best statistics.
China operates on such principles. Efficiency and statistics. The ends justify the means.
In fact if you strongly reduce the first Amendment (freedom of expression, speech etc) you can greatly limit all negative subcultures, and reduce violence tremendously.
Having a much larger impact on all crime than any limits on the 2nd Amendment.
No gangster or criminal glorification, no movies where the criminals succeed or are not killed or captured etc.
By restricting freedom and creating strong tyranny you can become absolutely efficient. You can even easily resolve issues like overcrowding by mandating infantacide for any newborns over the legal limit. China knows.
Imprison people who question the tactics that lead to absolute efficiency and success.
A police state with no privacy rights, and no due process is much more efficient.
Fortunately we had some founding fathers who cared more about idealogy and pinciples of liberty and freedom than statistics and efficiency.
A nation where the individual and thier rights are more important than collective efficiency.
Where people from around the world would flock to long before a good quality of life was normal in America.
For the average American citizen they have far more freedoms than most of the world and not much more danger either. Unless they make the free choice to be part of the subcultures that are involved in most murders the national statistics do not apply to them.
If you adjust the statistics to remove such drug dealers and gang members the rates are actualy lower than for similar people in much of Europe also not drug dealers or gang members.
A person not involved in such subcultures is actualy more likely to get randomly attacked in portions of Europe than in the United States.
Places where "fun hobbies" like the "happy slap" exist. Activities that would get thugs and miscreants killed in the US.
Even if that was not the case, you only live once. A shorter life of freedom would be better than a long life on your knees. Greater control over individual destiny cannot be replaced by generalized statistics.
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Yankee
Member
Actually America is closer to those principles. It is an irrefutable fact that the United States incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world including places like China, North Korea and Burma. Please explain to me how that somehow makes America more "Free".
You seem to be trying to say that countries without unrestricted firearms freedom are somehow tyranical and I just dont think you have the evidence for that. Their are countries with strict firearms controls which are oppressive (eg China) and there are countries without firearm controls which are oppressive (eg virtually all of central and Western Africa). Alternatively, there are countries with strict firearm laws which are anything but oppressive and tyranical eg Australia, New Zealand, Scandanavia.
So I had to jump through quite a few hoops before I could buy my Glock 34 - big deal. I don't have a problem with mandatory safety training for all shooters. A gun is no different to a motor car. It should be respected, it's capabilities understood and recognised that it can be deadly if used without caution. We demand training for drivers and we should demand training for shooters. How many threads do we have on here about acidental shooting deaths, unsafe practices at ranges etc?
By the way, have you ever been to Australia? Do you know any Australians? Try standing up in any Australian pub and call them weak, oppressed sheeple with no freedoms. The guys I know would take pleasure in freely kicking your arse.
Stiring rhetoric but the statistics say that your 9.5 times more likely to be killed by a fellow citizen than an Australian is. 80 years of life is better than an eternity in the grave.
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