Alledged CIA agent killed by police after high speed chase

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by wally, Apr 30, 2008.

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  1. springmom

    springmom Member

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    To keep this on track and on topic.....

    There is protocol to be followed in traffic stops in Texas, and hitting the gas and running for it is NOT in the protocol. Keep your hands in plain sight. Tell the officer if you're carrying, and where the gun is. If you have to reach into your glove box to get your insurance info, tell them that's what you're doing.

    Don't reach under the seat. Don't reach around back. Don't run.

    There may be some reason that he ran, but unfortunately, now that he's dead, we'll likely never know what it was. The investigation continues, though, and as of last night's news, a CIA supervisor of some sort was coming down from Washington "to help get this straightened out". If he was what he said he was, I expect a solid wall of silence to descend very shortly.

    It was a sad business, and utterly avoidable.

    Springmom
     
  2. Yosemite**Sam

    Yosemite**Sam Member

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    I think they inventoried the car at the impound and found guns in the trunk.
     
  3. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    Well said... In fact, the more I think about it, the thread should "auto close" after posts like that...

    That was TOO on point... ;)
     
  4. Soap

    Soap Member

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    If you go to the AFIO's main website, in the application, it lists membership type thus:

    Category Choose one...

    -Current or Former US Intelligence / CI Professional - $60/yr
    -Current or Former US Law Enforcement Professional - $60/yr
    -Private Industry / Business Intelligence - $60/yr
    -General Public / Intelligence Enthusiast - $60/yr
    -Journalists and Media Professionals - $60/yr
    -UK, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand Citizen - $95/yr
    -College Professors / Students / Other Academics - $60/yr
    -Donor - Nathan Hale Fellow - $1000/yr
    -Corporation - $2000/yr - See Corporate Membership List for other categories

    He could have been in any of those categories so membership doesn't mean anything really.
     
  5. Tequila Mockingbird

    Tequila Mockingbird Member

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    Unfortunately, Houston cops have a pretty good record of killing their fellow citizens. While it definitely isn't smart to run from the cops, this isn't a police state (yet) and having a bunch of cops, fingers on triggers, high on adrenalin, screaming at you and busting out a window of your car isn't the best way to resolve this type of situation. Looks like the guy just forgot his cell phone and turned to retrieve it, a perfectly natural thing that any of us might do without thinking. Cops always justify their actions by stating "I was in fear of my life", but that's mostly just bull to cover up the fact that they panicked and pulled their triggers before they properly assessed the situation. In Houston anyway, cops who kill citizens are usually given a pass by prosecutors and grand juries, so there's no real incentive to require they have better training or improved procedures to minimize this type of occurrence.
     
  6. springmom

    springmom Member

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    TM, welcome to the High Road.

    In point of fact, if you read today's account on the front page of the Chronicle, you will note that the deceased was acting very oddly. He was nervous and shaking, and he took off at high speed once the officers ascertained that he had a CHL.

    Now, contrast that with his friendly relationships with law enforcement, including a previous police chief/sheriff (have to go back and check the article to see which). The flight simply makes no sense. None.

    Unless, perhaps, something was wrong with him....a stroke in process? some other illness? something else we may never know?

    I doubt many of us here, after that very strange and unsettled series of events, would fail to shoot if we saw someone grab something from under a car seat. From their point of view, they do appear to have had every reason to assume he was retrieving a weapon. God knows he was ACTING like a perp.

    I'll say it again...and once again, try to get this thread back on track before it's locked. There is a way to deal with traffic stops. Texas law requires letting the officer know you are carrying if you are. Common sense requires that the officer be able to see your hands, that you not gun the gas and run, and that you don't BEHAVE like you've just cut off twelve people's heads, you know?

    What we can learn from this is that screwing around on traffic stops has consequences we don't want. Sometimes they're lethal.

    May his memory be eternal.

    Springmom
     
  7. Tequila Mockingbird

    Tequila Mockingbird Member

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    Springmom,

    No argument with anything you said. But Houston cops have a depressingly miserable record of killing folks when there should have been other means of resolving the situation. Not just in traffic situations, though there have been a bunch of those, but when they have been called by family members to subdue a belligerent or mentally ill family member. In the present situation, why wasn't a supervisor called who could have talked the guy into surrendering? He wasn't going anywhere, and it would have given everyone an opportunity to cool off. Why weren't the cops behind the cover of their squad cars instead of being exposing themselves to fire from a suspect? HPD suffers from poor training, poor supervision and inadequate procedures to handle this type of situation, and the citizens of Houston are the ones who suffer.
     
  8. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    maybe you should join the hpd make available to them your expertise
     
  9. Winchester 73

    Winchester 73 member

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    This is obviously a lot more gun related than the Air Marshall being dragged and shooting the draggee.
    That thread was locked very,very quickly with no comment.This one's got over 1000 hits and going strong.
    Guess CIA folks just are higher on the gun related spectrum than those poor sad sack Marshalls.
    At least on THR.
     
  10. Tequila Mockingbird

    Tequila Mockingbird Member

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    Gee, why didn't I think of that? Ya think they'd take me? Maybe I'll join the CIA instead and instruct their operatives how to behave during a police traffic stop. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Winter Borne

    Winter Borne Member

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    This whole thing is sad and very confusing. I will say this as I think it needs to be pointed out. Most of my wifes family is employeed by the CIA in Langley and elsewhere in Virginia and DC. Thet are NOT spys or agents, but mid-level office types who do accounting or clerical or analisys. They DO NOT talk about their employment. I wouldn't even know except for the background checks that they have to go through requires that their investigators call local friends and family to interview them. I repeat, they don't post awards, flash ID or talk about working there ever. We kid around some and it still never comes up. There are a lot of folks in this neck of the woods in VA who claim some involvment with the agency for what ever personal reason, but I can tell you from my experience with them and some of their co-workers who have been to my house for 4th of july parties and such, they just don't mention where they work.

    Prayers for the family and the Officer.

    mk
     
  12. mbt2001

    mbt2001 Member

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    Do you think the officers have an "easy button" or a freeze frame lever that they can throw? No one can see the future. The further away from the present you go, the opportunity for anything to happing begings to reach infinity... So you can ask AFTER THE FACT, why they didn't do something different. At the time, it wasn't plain that what they were doing would cause what it did....

    Houston Police and Sheriffs Department are good people, I don't know what you are reading, but I disagree and THE FACTS DON'T back up what you have said.
     
  13. siglite

    siglite Member

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    Yup. Even after they retire.

    Ever.

    No company talk off company grounds. Nada. Zilcho.
     
  14. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    Perhaps you need to go find some statistics and data to back that up before you start bad mouthing Houston cops any more. Your opinion about them killing people too much is just your opinion.
     
  15. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    Regarding Planting of the Guns, if he had a CHL, it was legal to have those guns in the car. He wasn't breaking any laws, so why would cops plant the guns? We all really need to stop throwing that out there every time an article like this is posted.
     
  16. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    I don't understand why certain posters on this board are implying that the video released to the media SHOWS this guy reaching under the seat of his car (allegedly).

    It does not show any such thing. Not the video linked to by that link above. He may or may not have been reaching for his cell phone. But tell me - who keeps a cell phone under their car seat, instead of in their pocket, in a case on their belt, or in their console?

    It was incredibly stupid of him to run from the police, CIA agent or not, and he had to know, bad things can and probably will happen when you do that, but so far I have seen zero evidence that this was definitely a good or a bad shoot (i.e. that the guy was reaching for something).

    Was he in the CIA? No, I very seriously doubt it. Doesn't really matter, does it? A life is a life, and they are all valuable. Was he incredibly stupid? Absolutely. Good shoot? Who knows...It's probably a good shoot, given his actions, and if it is a bad shoot (no reaching for anything), then it's only very marginally bad and pretty highly explainable, given the adrenaline levels involved created by this guy's incredibly moronic action of running for so long. Did the police plant the guns? Possible, but probably not.
     
  17. lanternlad1

    lanternlad1 Member

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    It is legal to have guns in the car in Texas. I don't think the police planted any, since it wouldn't be a crime. Also, people hear "He worked in intelligence." and automatically think CIA, when the organization he belonged to was for former Army Intelligence guys. Big deal. My father in law was in Army Intelligence in Vietnam. Doesn't make him a spy, just a guy who read a lot of maps.
     
  18. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    In Texas he can have all the guns he wants in his car quite legally, loaded or not, CHL or not. No reason to plant anything.

    My guess is an attack of stupid or medical problem.
     
  19. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    um winchester? you do know that there is a difference between air marshalls and the us marshalls service right? try reading your cut and pastes comprehension will go way up.
     
  20. rainbowbob

    rainbowbob Member

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    Uh...yeah...it means he didn't work for them. As pointed out by others - those who do don't talk about it. Period. My father was a federal LEO. We were instructed not to talk about it - but of course we couldn't always stop ourselves from bragging about our dad. I suspect that if a person was really a CIA operative - even his children wouldn't know it.

    This sounds like a sad story about a man that - for reasons we will never know - wanted to end his life and chose "suicide by cop". Sad for the family - sad for the LEOs that got the call.

    From what I've read they had no choice. They could not let this person in a one-ton battering ram continue to risk the lives of other drivers. Even if they had him completely boxed in and his vehicle disabled – his erratic behavior still presented an unacceptable level of risk.
     
  21. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    OTOH it seems likely that stopping the pursuit would have ended that risk. Most police departments these days have policies that favor ending high speed pursuits in many cases, a good idea IMO.

    There will be an official explanation of course, but I predict we will never know what really happened or why. Even those involved directly may never know for sure.
     
  22. plexreticle

    plexreticle Member

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    Safety tip: Don't reach for cell phone when cops draw down on you.
     
  23. C96

    C96 Member

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    Self Proclaimed Secret Agent Called HPD IAD and FBI During Pursuit

    Link - http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/5748085.html

    May 2, 2008, 12:50AM
    In his final moments, Carnaby made calls to FBI, HPD as he fled


    By LINDSAY WISE and DALE LEZON
    Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle

    The patrol officer who stopped Roland Carnaby for speeding Tuesday morning was about to detain him as a possible CIA agent impersonator when he took off in his SUV, Houston police said Thursday.

    Two days after officers shot Carnaby to death at the conclusion of a high-speed chase, more details emerged about the bizarre chain of events, including phone calls Carnaby made after he was pulled over.

    First Carnaby called an acquaintance in Houston Police Department's internal affairs division, trying to get someone to vouch for him to the patrolman. Later, as he raced away from pursuing officers at speeds up to 120 mph, the man who had for years projected the persona of a federal intelligence officer apparently called a contact he knew in the FBI.

    Carnaby initially had thought that by showing an ID card bearing the seal of the Central Intelligence Agency he could be on his way. But the officer who stopped him along Texas 288 near West Orem, already suspicious because of Carnaby's nervous behavior, did not recognize the ID card and told Carnaby he would check it out, HPD homicide Capt. Steve Jett said.

    "The officer went back and checked the guy, and when he checked the license, the handgun permit came up and he was like, 'Why does a federal agent need a concealed handgun permit?' " Jett said.

    Increasingly suspicious, the officer asked Carnaby for proof of his connection with the CIA.

    "He asked him questions like who's your supervisor? Do you have a contact number you can call and verify? And the answers weren't very good," Jett said.

    That was when Carnaby called someone he knew at HPD's internal affairs division. The officer asked the acquaintance if Carnaby really worked for the CIA.

    "The answer was 'possibly yes,' " Jett said. "But the officer was obviously not inclined to just let him go. He was being very thorough and probably was going to write him a ticket, if not put him in jail for something, probably for not presenting a concealed handgun permit when he was stopped."

    State law requires holders of concealed carry permits to present them when stopped by police if they have weapons in the car.

    Doubts about Carnaby's true identity were compounded by conflicting information, Jett said. The officer also had contacted HPD's criminal intelligence and major offenders divisions to ask them to check Carnaby's credentials, he said.

    "They told him 'No, we think he's a fraud,' " Jett said. "Something apparently triggered on his name, but again nobody was sure. Nobody's still sure. They'd heard his name before and they thought no, he's not (CIA)."

    The officer was told to "find something to arrest him on; you can't arrest him for speeding," Jett said.

    Carnaby had not shown his concealed weapon permit, which was sufficient violation to hold him. But when he was asked to step out of his SUV, Carnaby sped away, Jett said.

    As HPD patrol cars began their pursuit, Carnaby called a friend on his cell phone. The friend, described by Jett as "possible FBI," urged Carnaby to pull over and obey police.

    HPD investigators are still trying to get in touch with the friend to talk to him, Jett said. Local FBI spokeswoman Shauna Dunlap declined to comment, saying it is inappropriate for the FBI to discuss an ongoing HPD investigation.


    Autopsy video refused
    Carnaby's lawyer, Kenneth Brooten, said the fatal shooting, which occurred after Carnaby exited his car at the end of the chase, did not appear necessary.

    "All of this has a smell factor," Brooten said. "What was the justification for the use of deadly force? Was this man a felon that was fleeing the scene of an armed robbery? Had he pulled a gun on them previously? That's a public policy issue. That affects every person who drives around Houston or lives there."

    Brooten said he sent a letter to the Harris County Medical Examiner's office asking that Carnaby's autopsy be videotaped, but county attorney Barbara Callistien wrote him back to say HCME does not videotape autopsies.

    Brooten also wants the Texas Rangers to examine the case and the FBI to look at whether evidence has been tampered with.

    A former chief counsel of the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Brooten met Carnaby several years ago and served as an attorney for the Houston branch of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers, which Carnaby headed. He said he attended an annual symposium for the AFIO at the CIA headquarters at Langley with Carnaby, who seemed well-known there, albeit under the pseudonym of "Tony."

    "I recall people coming out recognizing him, 'Hey Tony, how are you?' This is what I saw. Did I know those people personally? No. Was I introduced by Tony? Yes."

    One of Carnaby's most obvious signs of legitimacy came through the AFIO. Carnaby had led the revival of a dormant Houston chapter, which periodically hosted banquets that featured speakers well known in the intelligence community and were well attended by local law enforcement officials.

    The executive director of the AFIO, Elizabeth Bancroft, said she met Carnaby several years ago at the group's functions held near McLean, Va.

    The organization, which is open to U.S. citizens, holds an annual symposium and monthly luncheons.

    Bancroft said Carnaby never mentioned being a former CIA employee, and the stories about his connection to the agency shocked her. "Is this genuine or is this a very overactive fantasy life?" she said.

    Carnaby was a very eager, enthusiastic AFIO member, Bancroft said. When she told him that the group's Houston chapter had been inactive for years, he volunteered to get it going again.

    She said he was an excellent organizer and boosted chapter membership to about 200 members. He also had extensive contacts with law enforcement, which helped him book speakers for the chapter's meetings.


    HPD defends officers
    Carnaby asked the national headquarters if he could name the Houston chapter after CIA agent William Francis Buckley, who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in Lebanon in 1985.

    "He talked about Buckley, how much he admired him and the bravery it must have taken to endure that type of torture that ends your life," she said.

    For a person who was so supportive of law enforcement, Carnaby's final agony angers lawyer Brooten, who criticized the officers present for handcuffing him instead of administering medical care.

    "All of this other stuff (about Carnaby's mysterious life) is all very interesting, but it is of no consequence when you consider a man is dead and he died handcuffed and nobody tried to stop the bleeding or anything," Brooten said. "You know what you call that? You call that an assassination."

    Jett defended the officers at the scene, saying they are not trained to assist people with serious gunshot wounds.

    "We would handcuff people and try to get them comfortable, but we're not paramedics, and most officers don't know about giving first aid like that other than CPR, and you don't want to give CPR to a gunshot victim," he said.

    Investigators later found three weapons in Carnaby's car, police said. One pistol was under the passenger-side floormat. A second was between the seats. On the back seat floorboard lay a pistol-grip shotgun with a round in the chamber and the safety off.

    Brooten said he has no idea why his friend and client ran from police, but he has a difficult time believing HPD's account.

    "Maybe he thought he was being set up. That's speculation only," he said. "The answer is no, I don't know. But there are multiple reasons why an experienced professional would feel threatened. And given the actions after the shooting, maybe his instinct was correct."


    CIA repeats its denial
    The CIA on Thursday reiterated its denial that Carnaby had any connection with the intelligence agency.

    "This individual was not a CIA officer, and I have seen no indication whatsoever that he had a contract with the CIA," said agency spokesman George Little.

    True or not — his friends claim disavowing any affiliation is standard procedure in clandestine intelligence work — Carnaby had certainly been successful at constructing the appearance of a longtime intelligence officer and a well-connected guy.

    His Pearland home contains several photos of him taken with local dignitaries, including former U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker III and Houston Police Chief Harold Hurtt. Both insist they do not know him.

    [email protected]

    [email protected]
     
  24. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    I wonder just how deep this rabbit hole goes...
     
  25. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    Did HPD release squad car video showing that was what happened?
     
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