burningsquirrels
Member
probably because they have more restraint and self control. (only in general. sorry, but it sure seemed that way when i lived there.)
Always mention Switzerland
- Thread starter telomerase
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Robert Hairless
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Heavens no! It's so much more cool to either surrender or pay someone else to do the fighting. Paying someone else is better because then we can like do protest marches when they get like hurt man. If it's not raining, or American idol isn't on, or there's not anything better to do.
I wouldn't think of suggesting that anyone has any duties or obligations to anything outside himself or herself as the case might be. That would be just wrong.
I'm against Military Slavery, School Slavery, and Wage Slavery. I won't fight, won't learn, and won't work, and I'm darned proud of it too. I have rights!
As our Swiss correspondent said, "Young men have other private business to do than wear an uniform and be shout at." There's partying, hanging out, and hooking up, for example. Life is about enjoyment. The other stuff is yucky, especially when people shout at you. They need to chill.
CrawdaddyJim
Member
American Sarcasm on a European thread is not funny Robert. Go to your room mister.....
Shung
Member
It is a deirect democracy, and yes we vote many times a year (look for my 1st thread in THR, I explained all of that more precisely). however it's a long time we dont take our weapons to vote.. I guess that I could do it peacefully next time however, to show my disaprouval of the new gun law..
a glass of white one prior or after shooting never killed anyone
and made some old timers less shivering for shooting activities (we have guys over 80 still shooting ..)2 nights a week when you are serving !
(this time I got the irony of it
)No a glass of wine never hurt anything but most USA shooters are not accustomed to that. I know of one or two ranges though here that do serve alcohol.
As for national service, I had an Israeli friend who lied and played many games to get out of military service. We were good friend but I used to tell her how I lost respect for her doing this.
Her sister served in a combat unit though.
Thats too bad that weapons are no longer brought when going to vote, is this all over Switzerland or just in certain areas? When did thkis tradition fade away?
As for national service, I had an Israeli friend who lied and played many games to get out of military service. We were good friend but I used to tell her how I lost respect for her doing this.
Her sister served in a combat unit though.
Thats too bad that weapons are no longer brought when going to vote, is this all over Switzerland or just in certain areas? When did thkis tradition fade away?
Shung
Member
It was mainly in "landsgemeinde", were traditionnally people in villages voted on pubilc places, openely, rising their hands. This happends in central Switzerland Kantons, and Appenzells for example. But in large cities (for our country I mean.. Geneva is something like 500 000 people and considered a large citiy) it's a long time that it doesnt happend. Eventually you can bring you bayonnet to the vote. It would be a symbol strong enough !
just for example, among the subjects of our next vote, it will be asked us all our opinion about the buildings of Minarets in Switzerland.
They believe (the guys who collected the 100 000 signatures requested to start a national vote, and I think it as well) that we have nothing against Mosque, since we have Swiss that are actually muslims, but since we forbid the muezin call (the guy praying loud from the top of the minaret, 5 times a day) like we forbid the church to ring bells too often, no to disturb people, we think that Minarets will be useless and a too strong sign of islamisation of our country (which is Christian by history and culture (both catholic and protestant)).
Such a vote was requested because our government authorized the building of a minaret somewhere in Switzerland, and we, part of the citizens, disagreed with that decision.
To win the vote, we will have to win the double majoritiy. Wich means majority of people, and majority of Kantons (like your states. we have 23 Kantons), saying NO to the building of minarets.
But we vote on many subjects. Recently in my kanton (Geneva) we voted for banning the tobacco from public places such as bars, nightclubs etc ... I voted against that banning , even if I don't smoke and don't like smoking, but to preserve everyone right to rule a Smocking nighclub, for example. In this case "we" lost, and smocking in such places is now banned in Geneva.
We even voted on dangerous dogs (pittbuls, Rottweilers etc etc) .. again I voted NO, because I didnt want honest citizen owning well leashed dogs to be punished for that stupidity of a minority of stupid dog owners... but again, we lost, and they are now a lots of restrictions about those species of dogs.
The dangers of the direct democracy, is that MANY people are SHEEPS and vote just listening medias and other propaganda.
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beaucoup ammo
Member
Our youngest daughter has lived in Zurich for 5 years. We've visited her numerous times and I gotta tell you, it's a shooter's paradise! You've heard of "pick up" basket ball games?" Try the same for target shooting. It's heaven.
I've been there, participated, and if you get the chance by all means go. It helps to know someone, and by all means be respectful. Then, the doors open and the fun begins!
I've been there, participated, and if you get the chance by all means go. It helps to know someone, and by all means be respectful. Then, the doors open and the fun begins!
32winspl
Member
I'm really impressed and humbled by Shung, his Swiss countrymen, and the Finnish gentleman's useage of English. From way back in high school, I can barely remember a tiny bit of German, and string a few cuss-words together in Finnish (The Finns being well-represented in the UP of Michigan where I was born).
Thanks guys for broadening our horizons.
Thanks guys for broadening our horizons.
beaucoup ammo
Member
Shung, thank you for your insightful posts! Our daughter mentioned the vote you brought up. Is there a large influx of Eastern Europeans trying to enter your country? I join 32winspl in complementing you on your command of the English language and general knowledge!
VonClausewitz
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- Joined
- Jul 15, 2008
- Messages
- 34
Paradise Lost?
The Swiss firearm liberties are under siege. As in all countries where there is a legal possibility for citizens to procure firearms, the gun grabbers are not far behind. Since our last law revision of 1999, there have been numerous attempts to promote tiptoe disarmament of the public. Bullet points of proposed legislation:
1. All personal service weapons (SIG 550 or SIG P220) should be surrendered and stored within the army logistic bases. As with most of such proposals, the practicality is questionalble, the additional costs horrendous.
2. Upon discharge from armed services, soldiers and officers schould no longer be allowed to take their personal weapons into their private property. It seems quite allright to order citizen soldiers to stand guard at the World Economic Forum in Davos as armed agents of the state, but god forbid them from keeping their stuff when the show is over.
3. Up until now, citizens have the right to buy guns unless they have a serious criminal record or mental health problems. Advocates of gun control propose a general prohibition, with the lawmakers granting temporary ownership privilege to citizens who can prove a "valid reason" to do so. I wonder if home defense will count? What about the constitutional guarantee of property?
4. A federal database of all civilian gun ownership. Does not prevent any crime, but sure makes later confiscation a lot easier.
Note that the usual coalition of suspects (socialists, greens, feminists,...) tried to use the "crime prevention" and public safety argument in the past. It did not fly in Switzerland. Now the focus lies on suicide prevention and socalled "UN compliance". You cant loose votes you never had.
Nanny state, here we come.
The Swiss firearm liberties are under siege. As in all countries where there is a legal possibility for citizens to procure firearms, the gun grabbers are not far behind. Since our last law revision of 1999, there have been numerous attempts to promote tiptoe disarmament of the public. Bullet points of proposed legislation:
1. All personal service weapons (SIG 550 or SIG P220) should be surrendered and stored within the army logistic bases. As with most of such proposals, the practicality is questionalble, the additional costs horrendous.
2. Upon discharge from armed services, soldiers and officers schould no longer be allowed to take their personal weapons into their private property. It seems quite allright to order citizen soldiers to stand guard at the World Economic Forum in Davos as armed agents of the state, but god forbid them from keeping their stuff when the show is over.
3. Up until now, citizens have the right to buy guns unless they have a serious criminal record or mental health problems. Advocates of gun control propose a general prohibition, with the lawmakers granting temporary ownership privilege to citizens who can prove a "valid reason" to do so. I wonder if home defense will count? What about the constitutional guarantee of property?
4. A federal database of all civilian gun ownership. Does not prevent any crime, but sure makes later confiscation a lot easier.
Note that the usual coalition of suspects (socialists, greens, feminists,...) tried to use the "crime prevention" and public safety argument in the past. It did not fly in Switzerland. Now the focus lies on suicide prevention and socalled "UN compliance". You cant loose votes you never had.
Nanny state, here we come.
Shung
Member
Great post VonClausevitz. I couldnt explain it better !
but here we keep on fighting those liberty diggers ! Help us !
thy are already here, mainly from the Balkan, prior and after the war. part of them want those minarets (because they are bosniac, and therefore muslims)
but here we keep on fighting those liberty diggers ! Help us !
thy are already here, mainly from the Balkan, prior and after the war. part of them want those minarets (because they are bosniac, and therefore muslims)
Shung
Member
Shung
Member
Since I retrieved that picture for another thread, here is me and some friends at my "recruit school" (kinda our "boot camp" ) ...
Dont worry. Some have fingers on the triggers, but it is on purpose. weapon were "neutralized" prior to a combat exercize, and that is why you see a white rubber band over the magazines.
The "band of brothers" style was on purpose
Dont worry. Some have fingers on the triggers, but it is on purpose. weapon were "neutralized" prior to a combat exercize, and that is why you see a white rubber band over the magazines.
The "band of brothers" style was on purpose
The SIG 550 is among the best guns in the world I feel. I'd give anything to own a 551. I have to make do with a pair of Schmidt Rubin K31's. Swiss guns being expensive and all!
A friend of mine recently got a Swiss clone of the CZ75 used for $150usd though!!!
Good luck with the minaret vote. Too bad with the pitbulls and smoking, I enjoy both somewhat!
A friend of mine recently got a Swiss clone of the CZ75 used for $150usd though!!!
Good luck with the minaret vote. Too bad with the pitbulls and smoking, I enjoy both somewhat!
Shung
Member
The 75 clone is a Sphinx ?
Maybe I could go for a 553 , but definately, the 550 is a too heavy weapon for it's purpose (in term of pure weight, not power, of course)
Maybe I could go for a 553 , but definately, the 550 is a too heavy weapon for it's purpose (in term of pure weight, not power, of course)
I think it was a gun imported in to the USA by action arms as the AT84 or AT88. I am familiar with the Sphinx, expensive! I would not mind owning a STG57 also. I have the bayonet for it. K31 bayonets are expensive in the USA, close to $100usd.
For some reason, STG57 bayonets are not, I got mine last year for $15.
For some reason, STG57 bayonets are not, I got mine last year for $15.
Shung
Member
here I can have them for half the price, so yours is fair considering the export.
Often you can even find the K31 plus its bayonnet on same numbers.
.
yes. at last Lausanne gunshow I bought 5 of them, 5$ each. there are tons of them around !
as for the STG57, you can buy them for 400 to 600 $ here.
I guess importing one for you is impossible ?
anyway, its a damn precise rifle.. but heck. you dont wan't to walk with that neither.. it weights more than my car...
Yes the semi auto versions of the SIG 550 and the STG 57 are very expensive here. We really can't import one here either due to our laws if they were once full auto.
The semi auto versions were only imported in small numbers and can no longer be imported either due to our laws again. I wonder what SIG 550 bayonets sell for?
I don't own a K31 bayonet as they cost as much as I paid for the rifles! K11's are more expensive and rarer here also.
I'd really like to have one of the home kept sealed cans of 5.56 or 7.5 or 9x19 ammuntion but they are rare and expensive here also.
A local gunshop has one of those older Swiss military revolvers for sale also with a box of ammuntion from the 1960's with writing on it in French,Italian, and German.
They want $850usd for it!
The semi auto versions were only imported in small numbers and can no longer be imported either due to our laws again. I wonder what SIG 550 bayonets sell for?
I don't own a K31 bayonet as they cost as much as I paid for the rifles! K11's are more expensive and rarer here also.
I'd really like to have one of the home kept sealed cans of 5.56 or 7.5 or 9x19 ammuntion but they are rare and expensive here also.
A local gunshop has one of those older Swiss military revolvers for sale also with a box of ammuntion from the 1960's with writing on it in French,Italian, and German.
They want $850usd for it!
Shung
Member
a Fass90 (SiG550) bayonet must be like 70$ I guess.
If you want I can look for a K31 bayonet for you ! maybe I can find some at faire prices.
I guess it could be send to you by post, right ? no importation laws about it ?
as for the the Swiss revolver, a friend of mine as a couple of them. once we fired 90years old cartridges ! but most of the time we reload them using black powder, as the original. That piece of revolver is a masterpiece.. Much more like a clock than a gun..!
If you want I can look for a K31 bayonet for you ! maybe I can find some at faire prices.
I guess it could be send to you by post, right ? no importation laws about it ?
as for the the Swiss revolver, a friend of mine as a couple of them. once we fired 90years old cartridges ! but most of the time we reload them using black powder, as the original. That piece of revolver is a masterpiece.. Much more like a clock than a gun..!
VonClausewitz
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- Joined
- Jul 15, 2008
- Messages
- 34
K31 +scope
If you like swiss guns and can get hold of a good K31, invest some more for a scope mount and good optics (Leupold, Schmidt & Bender,...).
This way you end up with a formidable competition weapon that rivals the precision of much more expensive models at a fraction of the cost.
The main drawback would be the expensive caliber 7.5 Swiss, offered by Norma and Munitionswerke Thun (RUAG). Calculate 2$ per shot. This does not bother me much as I dont go gattling with with pinpoint guns.
If you, however, plan to produce a lot of brass, go for something in .308 instead.
Regards
If you like swiss guns and can get hold of a good K31, invest some more for a scope mount and good optics (Leupold, Schmidt & Bender,...).
This way you end up with a formidable competition weapon that rivals the precision of much more expensive models at a fraction of the cost.
The main drawback would be the expensive caliber 7.5 Swiss, offered by Norma and Munitionswerke Thun (RUAG). Calculate 2$ per shot. This does not bother me much as I dont go gattling with with pinpoint guns.
If you, however, plan to produce a lot of brass, go for something in .308 instead.
Regards
Thanks for the bayonet offer but I'm very poor right now and shipping price would be expensive, I may take you up on your kind offer one day though!
I plan I maybe spending my limited money on a used Ruger Redhawk .44mag at $260usd tomorrow if I'm lucky and the deal goes thru.
Anyways back on topic, aren't many types on hollowpoint ammunition now banned in Switzerland?
And how much would guns such as that Swiss revolver and the K31 and K11 go for over there?
I plan I maybe spending my limited money on a used Ruger Redhawk .44mag at $260usd tomorrow if I'm lucky and the deal goes thru.
Anyways back on topic, aren't many types on hollowpoint ammunition now banned in Switzerland?
And how much would guns such as that Swiss revolver and the K31 and K11 go for over there?
Shung
Member
Yes they ALL are.. no deformative projectile are allowed.. It was even the case of the LEO until someone innoncent got killed by surpenetration. Now the police use a projectile that is called QD-1 or something similar. It is a controlled expansion bullet, which is a MUST have since we mainly use 9mm here.
Since it is forbidden I must tell you that I dont have such ammo at home...
But be sure that I wouldnt be shooting FMJ at a bad guy in my home...
K31 and K11 (without diopter) cost from 80 to 200 $ depending on how tight is the barrel, and how good the conditions are. (add 300$ if you want the official diopter)
here you have an idea of the rifle prices
http://www.waffenboerse.ch/csc_articles.php?VID=SAxfgtWpTsIdkRTn&saSearch[special]=boerse&saSearch[category]=sport-ordonnanz
1 chf = 1$ nowadays
the revolvers 1882-1929 are more expensive. But if I remind well, they are around 500-600 chf.. (=$)
i gotta go. I'll make a more complete answer later.
Shung, interesting link, I looked at a lot of it. SIG P210's are much more reasonably priced than here. Some of the German guns ok also. USA guns expensive! A pair of Hogue rubber grips was $55usd!?
Those are about half that here. And hollowpoint ammo is illegal for hunting even?
Also does anyone you know ever take home their duty P220 9mm pistol when they were done with military service? What is it called, the P75 by the military? Has Swiss markings on top of the slide?
Who in the military is issued pistols these days? Is'nt it postal personnel and officers?
Those are about half that here. And hollowpoint ammo is illegal for hunting even?
Also does anyone you know ever take home their duty P220 9mm pistol when they were done with military service? What is it called, the P75 by the military? Has Swiss markings on top of the slide?
Who in the military is issued pistols these days? Is'nt it postal personnel and officers?
Shung
Member
Yes they are allowed, but in Switzerland you cannot hunt with handguns.. so you wont find any handgun hollowpoints ammo.. (unless you know where to look for..
)Sure, we pay a lot for accessories, like grips, optics, mounts etc... our gunshops are getting fat on it..
I know lots of them. Actually most of them do, since you only have to pay soomething like 50$ to make it yours when you are done with the military.
Same goes for the SIG550 and for the STG57.. you pay something like 100$, just to have the fun switch neutralized to SEMI AUTO only.. And the rifle is yours. (the P220 has the Swiss markings, yes)
Officers, right, and also special untis like medics etc etc.
a military P210 here, is about 1200$ average.. more or less, depending the quality.
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