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Am I dumb or am I missing something here?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Tomekeuro85, May 23, 2006.

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  1. Tomekeuro85

    Tomekeuro85 Member

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    I hear people say all the time "My factory unmodified rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA all day long if I do my part" or I was at the range over the weekend and a guy told me he can shoot dime sized groups out of his factory Rem 700 at 200 yards. Something just doenst match up there. I try and try and although I do get the occasional sub 1/2 moa group, I'm far away from doing it consistently. My idea of consistently shooting 1/2 moa is like 9 out of 10 five shot groups will be 1/2 moa or less, and that tenth one will be like .6 moa or something.

    Am I just retarded that I can't get these mysterious 1/2 moa groups or do people just stretch the truth a bit and say 1/2 when they really mean 3/4, if even that?

    My average is about .7" at 100 yards.

    However, I can say (very cautiously however) that I have found a sub 1/2 moa load for my .308. 43.3 grains of Varget with 168 SMK seated at 2.825. I have shot 4 groups with this load, and they are as follows... .503, .468, .375, and .63. This is only 4 groups and that doesn't prove much, but I'll try that load again and see if I can do it a few more times. I just never liked it because it hits about 3" lower than the zeroed Federal GMM, but if thats what gets me such groups, then fine.

    Regardless, can someone give me some realistic CONSISTENT averages that I can compare to? People post pictures of one or two good groups and say that its consistent but I have a hard time believing that. But then again, jsut because I cant do it doenst mean someone else cant.

    Input anyone?
     
  2. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    I can't speak for everyone, but this is how I see it. One or two very good groups could be luck. Several very good groups means that the rifle is accurate and I was having a good day. Consistently tight groups mean that the rifle is accurate and I shoot it well.

    For example, my 700 LVSF in .17 Rem using 20 gr. V-maxes has printed several 3-shot groups that are better than .5 MOA, but most of the time I am closer to .7 or .8. Given the fact that there have been more than a few of the very tight clusters (which don't look so tight with such small bullets:( ), I will say that the rifle is half minute. When speaking of what I can do with the rifle, I will say 3/4.

    It has been my experience that most decent bolt guns are MOA capable once you find the pet load. Most varmint guns seem to be sub MOA without too much fuss. However, my .17 rem. is the only gun I have that I consider half-minute. My .223 Howa, accurate as it may be, has never produced a significant nuber of groups in the half-minute range. It is consistently at or slightly above 3/4. Same with my .17 Mach II and my 6mm rem. Most of my hunting rifles hover right around MOA with the right load (always Sierra GK, usually IMR powders and CCI primers). My .375 Ultra has never produced MOA, but I am quite sure that is a function of my ability shooting a rifle with over 80 ft/lbs of recoil. Tough to really settle in on that one.

    Edit: I forgot to mention how these groups are achieved. I shoot off a bench that is built for my height and use front and rear sandbags. I do not touch the rifle with my off hand. The .17 Rem. is a Remington 700 LVSF that is stock except for the 1 lb, 3 oz. trigger. It is topped with a Weaver V-16 4-16x 42mm 1/8 MOA dot reticle. The problem with this rifle is that it is half-worthless on a windy day. That, and it is a PITA to load for.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2006
  3. brianc

    brianc Member

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    One sub moa group, does not make a sub moa rifle!
    I only have one rifle that will do .5moa at 200 yds consistantly! and it took alot of mojo going into it, I can't say you won't get one out of the box.. but the odds are against you.
    Look at all the ads for sub MOA rifles for sale.. Most of them are very custom and very expensive! 2k +
    If your getting an honest .7 moa group contantly.. your ahead thousands!!!! You know what your rifle can and cannot do!
    I sense alot of brovado flowing around here. Look at a major authority on snipers..Maj Plaster. from the ult. sniper.. He pretty much said with regular practice. with a tuned rifle he will ave about .75moa!! consantly
    I don't doult that many can do better.. but if your getting that GREAT of groups with a stock rifle.. Start making some money in the benchrest games!
     
  4. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I have a Savage 10FP that has the old trigger but a new stock. With 168 grain Black Hills match ammo it will shoot under an inch all day long. It averages .70ish with half an inch not out of the question. With surplus crap it still does an inch or so if I do my part.

    When shooting for tiny groups ammo choice makes a huge difference as does skill and a certain amount of luck. I had one day with the above Savage where I shot several 3 shot groups that were same holers or about .3 of a inch. I have had other days where I shot.....well AK groups with cheap ammo and no concentration.
     
  5. rockstar.esq

    rockstar.esq Member

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    So there are a couple of things that just jump out at me there. The first is an obvious question. Are you measuring your groups from the outside edge of the farthest pair and deducting bullet diameter? Frequently this simple bit escapes folks. Second, are you allowing time for cooling and cleaning if needed? Tons of groups open up with either fouling or heat. I can consistently get a sub moa group as long as I give myself and the rifle breaks. Further, I do all my accuracy shooting from the bipod supported prone position. Some of my friends swear that this is somehow limiting my accuracy in comparison to the benchrest. To that I can only let the groups speak for me. After all, my main motivation is to be able to hit my target on my first try. Once the rifle has shown it's potential, I figure anything lacking is on my end.
     
  6. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    And to keep it apples to apples, how many shots are in each of these groups? Three-shot groups averaging 1/2" is a whole lot different than ten-shot groups averaging 1/2".
     
  7. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    True about letting the barrel cool and the shot numbers. I usually measure three shot groups and take my time (let the barrel cool between groups). I have had one five shot group that was spectacular but most start to open up or I pull a flyer at this point.
     
  8. Vic

    Vic Member

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    In the words of "Larry the cable guy"

    I don't know about all this MOA trash either. It'll be a cold day before I carry a set of digital calipers to the "shoot'in hole". If I can consistantly touch bullet holes (scoped high power) at 100yds with the occasional flier (most likely something I did) and the distance between the bullet holes are under 1" total spread...I'm fairly happy with the outing. There was a guy last year at the range with a Marlin 45-70 shorty. His group was about a 4" inside a 6" paper plate (scoped). He was using "custom loads" and they were rocking him HARD. He was happy with the group (it was for deer hunting and he said 300 grain bullets). The fact is that as hard as this thing kicked, his group most likely was pretty good. Could he do the job of hitting a deer at 100yds every shot? Yes is the correct answer. Personally, I would have dumped some FPS and grains to achieve a tighter group (and a more mild recoil), but that's me. But it's fun trying for the one hole group though.
     
  9. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    It's possible that a stock unmodified rifle can shoot 1/2 moa. It's pretty unlikely, but it is possible.

    That said, most of the stories you hear about other folks shoting 1/2 moa groups are BS. How often do you see someone at the range using a ruler to measure their groups? Groups tend to look a lot smaller when you don't have anything to measure them with...

    Most rifles can't shoot 1/2 moa. Most ammo can't shoot 1/2 moa. Most shooters can't shoot 1/2 moa. I won't bother to guess what (if anything) you might be doing wrong. But I think it's safe to say that you're not retarded.
     
  10. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    The size of a group only matters for bench rest shooters and load developement. The whole point of bench rest shooting is the smallest group. For load developement, group size only matters when compared to other loads.
    An average of .7 at 100 is nothing to sneeze at. It means your rifle is consistently accurate with match grade bullets. That is sub-MOA. However, change the weather, humidity, etc and your group size will change.
    "...it hits about 3" lower..." Sight adjustment required. Not at all unusual. Any rifle will shoot different ammo differently. Changing ammo, like you have by loading your own ammo, means you have to sight in again.
    I wouldn't worry too much about what other shooters say their rifle will do all day. Your's is just dandy the way it is.
     
  11. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    That's the rub, for a lot of these "sub MOA" guns. I can take my FAL out, and if I shoot enough three-shot groups, I'm certain to get one that makes this thing look like a sniper rifle shot by Hathcock himself. That's called "probability". I might run myself into the poor house buying ammo, but I it will eventually happen.

    What matters is what the rifle does most of the time. There is a term in statistics called "regression to the mean." You might go out and shoot a hole in one at golf on your first tee shot of the day. Wow! You're a great golfter! However, the more you golf that day, the more average you look. Why? Because you're an average golfer, and the more you golf the more you golf like an average golfer.

    In the "glass is half full" department, if you go out on your first tee shot and send it straight into the water hazard, playing more golf will probably make you look better, because you're an average golfer, and the more you golf the more you golf like an average golfer. Unless you're me. Then it makes you remember why you hate golf and would rather be out shooting. ;)

    What this all means is that in order to get a good picture of what your rifle can do, you need to shoot the rifle and record all of your groups. Not just the bad ones, not just the good ones (though, I'd be posting those on the net, regardless). There certainly are sub-MOA rifles out there. And there are also a whole lot of people who see one sub-MOA group and decide their AK is a real tack-driver.

    Mike

    PS No AK hate! I just had to balance out my FAL comment!

    PPS My FAL is 2-3 MOA. Probably closer to 3.
     
  12. 30-06 lover

    30-06 lover Member

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    For an unmodified gun, I have to say B.S. Not only will most factory guns not shoot sub, most shooters can't consistently, me being one! If I do my part, my Rem 700 will shoot 1 inch at 100 yards consistently, but I am not that consistent. Unless you shoot every six days, you are not going to be that consistent. For an unmodified gun with a guy that shoots once a month or less sub is just not going to happen every time...it might some of the time, but surly not most. For me...I am thrilled to have my gun shoot one inch groups, more that enough for anything I'm likely to kill.
    -Mike


    P.S. Here is a group of my unmodified Rem 700 30-06 on one of my better days...

    [​IMG]
     
  13. rangerruck

    rangerruck Member

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    i believe both your views are correct, some stretch the truth , allthough they may be, in fact close, and some just got an off the shelf very acc gun. Let me show you what my pawn shopper mod 60 does at 100 yds, with several dif types of rounds, it is quite astounding.
    [​IMG]
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    those are one inch dots at 100 yds, just using front and rear sandbag rests. the scope is a Barska 6.24.42. I actually have many more pics of diff rounds doing this , but i figured this was enough.
     
  14. qajaq59

    qajaq59 Member

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    He must be the same guy I met. You know, the one that didn't happen to bring THAT rifle today. :)

    Seriously though, I do think people tend to exaggerate how small their groups are, just like fishermen do with how large their bass was. I guess it's just the nature of the beast.
     
  15. davek

    davek Member

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    My Krag shoots .25 MOA at 100 yards 100% of the time with hand loads. I tried hand loading it for the first time using fire formed brass (it has some sort of improved chamber), just loaded up four rounds to see how they shot, took it to the range, shot this group...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ...said, "yep...that'll do", called it a day and that rifle hasn't left the safe since. :D

    :uhoh:

    I know...I know.:(
     
  16. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    I know a guy who goes for same hole shots at 200 yards with 22-250. He shoots very precise handloads with a custom rifle. Precision shooting with that one rifle is his hobby.

    I don't reload and I don't shoot expensive ammo much at all. I shot a PTR-91 last week and put the first 20 rounds into an 8-10" circle at 100 yards. In my book, that is good for the first time ever shooting the rifle. I didn't wait between shots and was using surplus .308. :D If I need to get precise, I'll get the scope mount working on my K31.


    The funny thing about the braggers is that when you ask what position they were shooting in they will start telling you they were standing or they can shoot that good from any position. It is just like the guys who say they shot the deer between the eyes at 637 yards with a 30-30. There are a lot of guys out there who can shoot really good, but sometimes I have to see it to believe it.
     
  17. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    I am willing to bet that most guys....

    that claim sub one inch groups at 100 yards are clamping their rifles in a Ransom like rest. I see it at the range all the time. Me, I just put the forestock over a sandbag and shoot. If I get a good group, it is a good day. If I don't, I better quit or practice more..........If you are not holding the gun, how can you claim you shot the group..........chris3
     
  18. Tomekeuro85

    Tomekeuro85 Member

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    I know that the custom rifles will shoot way below half moa with good handloads. I always see targets in the garbage cans of my shooting range that have several groups of .25" or less from 100 yards, but those of course are $3k+ rifles, not factory ones. I'd honestly be happy if I got near half moa consistently. I still have a long way to go before that however.

    Also, Would it be better to get something like a TRG22 or build my own rifle?
     
  19. Nhsport

    Nhsport Member

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    There are a bunch of great guys at my gunclub/range.But I believe about 1/2 of what I hear from 90% of them!
    Seems to me any time somebody SHOWS me (not talks about) a stock factory rifle shooting 1MOA on a repeatable basis I know several things. 1)they know how to shoot well. 2) They have made great decisions on glass, mounts,cleaning,and ammo or handloads.3) they got an above average factory gun.Some of the custom rifle builders will promise as little as 1/2 moa but only with selected ammo and conditions. This is no easy goal.
    Now there are folks out there who with custom tuned guns and handloads think that 1/2MOA isn't all that difficult but for most of us mortals is is a significant and difficult goal
    Sounds like you are shooting very well indeed!
     
  20. CB1961

    CB1961 Member

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    I'm happy hitting a gallon paint can at 100 yards with a .308win, so call me a redneck or whatever, but that makes me happy and doesn't require a lot of extra's besides rifle and ammo. I do admire people who are better shots than me (lots of people) and I do wish I could shoot those 1 inch groups, but don't see it happening unless I find a way to spend a lot more time and money shooting. Sometimes I get lucky and put a couple of holes right up close to each other, but might take 10 rounds to do it. Yeah, I know I'm not a sharp shooter, but I think about it alot...LOL:)
     
  21. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    It's possible, but not likely.

    I have two factory rifles that I like a lot and hunt with. One is a Remington 700 VLS in .223 Rem., the other a Savage short action in .308. The Savage has racked up a few deer, drops 150 grain bullets into the boiler room with regularity. With my "super secret handloads" I get an honest MOA out of it from the bench. The .223, on the other hand, with WWB 45gr HP's, will put an entire box (40) in one jagged hole if I take my time and don't screw up the rifle doing it's business. Again, off the bench. Offhand, I'm only good for about a 3-31/2 inch group at 100 yards if it's ideal conditions. Hunting deer or varmints I use a bipod or "field expedient" rest.
     
  22. qajaq59

    qajaq59 Member

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    If I started telling friends that I was shooting 1/2 inch groups they would laugh me out of the county. They all know most of my shooting this year was done at 200 yards with iron sights . And I do fair...... But certainly NOT that fair.
     
  23. Red Tornado

    Red Tornado Member

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    It appears from your groups that you're missing the flyer that opens it up to about 2 inches.:D (Or 4 inches :( ) I ALWAYS have one of those. I guess you can practice until you learn how to flinch properly.

    Seriously, it looks like you found the load and have the skill to start taking money from people whose mouths are writing checks their rifles can't cash. :evil:
    RT
     
  24. Kentak

    Kentak Member

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    Shooters, like fishermen, stretch the truth a lot. IMHO.

    K
     
  25. dfaugh

    dfaugh Member

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    Almost every 1/2" group I see (true center-to-center measurement) is a 3 shot group. OCCASIONALLY a 5-shot group. I shoot 10 shot groups. I usually have 1 or 2 flyers that are my fault (and I can usually call them)...a few good 3 or 5 shoot groups ( say 80% from a benchrest) means the gun and ammo combo is accurate...If 50% of my 10 shot groups are 1/2-3/4 MOA that means that not only is the gun accurate, my I'm shooting well also (and the moon, the sun and the planets are all in proper alignment!). I'm not impressed with anything less than a 10 shot group into one hole, on a fairly regular basis.
     
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