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Ammo for a SACM 1935 French pistol 7.62x22mm

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by jimmyraythomason, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    A friend of mine has asked me to help him find a source of ammo for his 1935 French SACM pistol. It is in 7.62x22mm(not the usual 7.65x20mm). So far I've had little to no success. Does anyone know of a possible source for obsolete ammo? We are already checking with GAD Custom ammo but haven't heard back from them you.
     
  2. vmtz

    vmtz Member

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    I was playing with one. You will have to make your own brass. If I recall correctly, you can use 32-20 brass. I was looking at using FN 5.7 brass. Base was smaller, but the rim would not need to be cut as with 32-20 brass.

    I gave up the project when I discovered that the pistol had a bad sear and there were zero replacement parts.

    Vince
     
  3. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    I have a S.A.C.M. 1935A pistol. Many years ago I bought reformed brass and have been reloading using .30 Mauser and .30 Luger bullets. I think I bought the brass from the Old Western Scrounger, but there may be other sources. Reloading dies are available from RCBS and Redding if memory serves. I have an RCBS set of dies.
     
  4. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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  5. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    I was watching an old Michael Caine movie I have on DVD the other day, "Get Carter", and the pistol he uses is a 1935A. One shot stops, and all. :)
     
  6. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Thanks Onmilo I have seen that but it isn't 7.62x22mm.
     
  7. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    I have shot some steel targets with reloaded 7.65 French Long ammo, and it seems to hit at least as hard as .380 ammo in knocking down plates.
     
  8. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    Where did he get that chambering for a 1935A? The 7.62 French Longue is oddball enough.
     
  9. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Yeah, whoops. I read the post, saw the dimensions and it still didn't register in my brain.
    The joys of getting old...
     
  10. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    I think he might be measuring the whole cartridge, not the usual length of the case. Probably the standard 7.65 Long pistol cartridge.
     
  11. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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  12. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    I guess the original 7.65 French Long IS the "7.62x22mm", but it isn't known by that designation here in the US. Maybe arms guys here avoid using that designation as it might get it confused with the 7.62x25mm Russian "Tokarev" rouind. Totally different. If you want common acknowledgement here from the guys that shoot it, referrring to it as the .32 French long or 7.65 French long will get you more understanding and help. I have recently taken up shooting and reloading the round with 62 cases I got from Buffalo Arms, but they were out of stock after I bought that partial lot. They plan to run some more in 2013. I measured a fired case at .772" after firing, coming in a tad longer than a 9mm Luger case at .750". True French ammo might be 22mm long, but I don't think the converted cases are, even unfired. There are variations in all manufactures of ammo, so minor variances are not of too much concern. Off the top of my head, I think I loaded 85gr Hornady .30 Luger bullets with 3.6gr of Unique, and got close to 1100fps in my 1935A, but don't hold me to it: check around for recommended data.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  13. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    I am wondering if this pistol is one that was converted to shoot 7.62 Tokarev ammo?
    Normal designation is 7.62X25 but I have heard it called 7.62X22 also.
    French handguns were converted by the Vietnamese and some very rough copies were also small shop made.
    You could try some 7.63 Mauser or 7.62 Tokarev it the gun uses a bottleneck cartridge
     
  14. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    I wondered about that but have found nothing to confirm it so it's still just a guess. I don't see 7.62 (being .30cal) and 7.65 (being .32cal) as being interchangable rounds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  15. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    .32 or 7.65mm is often a misnomer. Our .32acp and a lot of foreign 7.65 guns actually are .310" or .312" bore, and not true .32's. I am using .308/.309 bullets in the 1935A, and accuracy is very good.
     
  16. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    The metric designation for the .32/7.65 French Long cartridge is 7.65x20.
     
  17. SharpsDressedMan

    SharpsDressedMan member

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    That makes sense, as it was just a tad longer than the 9x19 (9mm Luger).
     
  18. Two Old Dogs

    Two Old Dogs Member

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    7.65mm MAS (French Long)

    To make 7.65mm MAS (French Long) cartridge cases, start with .32 S&W Long cases, reduce rim to .337" and cut a new extractor grove. Trim to
    .780" and F/L size.

    An alternative approach is to start with .30 Carbine cases, lathe turn (or drill press) to a rim diameter of .337" and a base diameter of.336". Trim to
    .780" length and F/L size. This reduces wall thickness and subsequently case strength, but the 7.65mm MAS was not originally loaded to magnum pressures. Use .32 S&W loading data which keeps pressure levels at or below 15,000 psi which should be safe in these cases.

    You can also swage the .30 Carbine case to reduce the base diameter from
    .354'" to .336" using lathe turned tapered dies (I used 2 dies, .354" to .344" and .344" to .336") in an arbor or hydraulic press with plenty of lubricant.
    "The rim slhould be reduced to .337" prior to swaging to prevent distortion.
    After swaging, trim to .780" and F/L size.

    An article by John Malloy in Gun Digest a few years ago covered the pistol, ammunition and the first two methods above for making cases.
     
  19. Two Old Dogs

    Two Old Dogs Member

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    7.65mm MAS (French Long)

    To make 7.65mm MAS (French Long) cartridge cases, start with .32 S&W Long cases, reduce rim to .337" and cut a new extractor grove. Trim to
    .780" and F/L size.

    An alternative approach is to start with .30 Carbine cases, lathe turn (or drill press) to a rim diameter of .337" and a base diameter of.336". Trim to
    .780" length and F/L size. This reduces wall thickness and subsequently case strength, but the 7.65mm MAS was not originally loaded to magnum pressures. Use .32 S&W loading data which keeps pressure levels at or below 15,000 psi which should be safe in these cases.

    You can also swage the .30 Carbine case to reduce the base diameter from
    .354'" to .336" using lathe turned tapered dies (I used 2 dies, .354" to .344" and .344" to .336") in an arbor or hydraulic press with plenty of lubricant.
    "The rim slhould be reduced to .337" prior to swaging to prevent distortion.
    After swaging, trim to .780" and F/L size.

    An article by John Malloy in Gun Digest a few years ago covered the pistol, ammunition and the first two methods above for making cases.
     
  20. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Thanks to all but unless some-one can prove that 7.62x22mm and 7.65x20mm are just different designations for the same cartridge,I'm only interested in locating actual 7.62x22mm ammo. Again,I appreciate the efforts.
     
  21. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Where does your friend get the numbers 7.65x22?

    CotW says case length is 19.8mm; Ed Ezell consistently refers to the 7.65 Longue as 7.65x20.

    I consider the CTD internet listing to be erroneous in the face of references by published sources.

    HOWEVER 7.65x22 is the metric designation for the bottleneck .30 Luger.
    If he has a 1935 SACM that shoots .30 Luger it is a rarity. It is also an overstressed rarity if shot with standard loads in that caliber.
     
  22. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    Has your friend measure a case that fits the chamber of his pistol? Maybe see if a standard round fits it?
     
  23. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    The metric designation of the 7.65 French Long is 7.65x20. The actual case length (measured samples) runs 19.67-19.8 mm. No way would it be called a 22mm case length. I think the person who called it 7.62x22 is simply wrong; per White & Munhall, there is no such cartridge.

    The .30 Luger metric designation is 7.65x21.

    Jim
     
  24. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    I get an awful lot of responses when I google 7.62x22mm. If this cartridge doesn't exist then there are a misprints all over the internet. Here is just one example<http://books.google.com/books?id=FGN8FTP2RyMC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=7.62x22mm+cartridge&source=bl&ots=ko-FyTo2yF&sig=LaElw1mE452XTyJld6n5wKtucSk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EvLkUJSRC4SK8QTttYGABA&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=7.62x22mm%20cartridge&f=false>
     
  25. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    I am sure you are right and I am wrong as no one on the Internet could be in error. I wish you luck in finding that ammunition.

    Jim
     
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