I thought this was very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgOa25NhFio&feature=em-subs_digest&app=desktop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgOa25NhFio&feature=em-subs_digest&app=desktop
Ammo Quest Tests 380: Buffalo Bore 100 grain hardcast +P
- Thread starter kokapelli
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Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I'm skeptical. I run flat nose lead (plated) at 100 gr. *HOT* in my .380 and the same Rim Rock flat nose bullet in .32 as is being tested in this video and I get great penetration but no where near 40+" of it.
Something's wrong somewhere in this. Done a lot of penetration testing and paid to have ballistics testing done on my hand loads and we have serious discrepancies with the tests shown.
Anyway.....
VooDoo
Something's wrong somewhere in this. Done a lot of penetration testing and paid to have ballistics testing done on my hand loads and we have serious discrepancies with the tests shown.
Anyway.....
VooDoo
You are correct. I have not tested to your length but his results do not fit with numerous other tests I have read about or seen on film. His results are so different I am tempted to dismiss them as anomalous. Don't understand why they are so different than other testers.
silicosys4
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I'm wondering why he had 50 inches of gelatin to test in. Almost like he was expecting that kind of penetration. I could see a person having 24" to test a supposed high-penetration handgun round in, 36" maybe to be on the safe side...but more 50 inches for a handgun? That seems a bit set up to "fail", i.e exceed BB's stated performance.
The fact that he used a 9mm gun to fire .380 rounds does not make me confident that everything else was done properly...like gel calibration.
Seems to me this is more of a hatchet job against Buffalo Bore. Note how he starts out by essentially saying
"this load is so hot (presumably. Nowhere in BB's literature for that round does it state any caveats about gun selection) that its unsafe to fire out of the .380 that I happen to have available to me. Much safer to use THE WRONG DANG GUN instead of finding a decent .380....or just calling Buffalo Bore to see if its safe."
Did this guy even read what BB had to say about the ammo first?
"1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel--- 1160 fps
2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1149 fps
3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1072 fps
4. Keltec---1061 fps
If it's listed for a keltec then a taurus should handle it.
"a nine is built to handle anything the .380 +p can throw at it". LoL, no.
Yea, just watched it again. Its nothing but a poorly done hatchet job than anything, imo
The fact that he used a 9mm gun to fire .380 rounds does not make me confident that everything else was done properly...like gel calibration.
Seems to me this is more of a hatchet job against Buffalo Bore. Note how he starts out by essentially saying
"this load is so hot (presumably. Nowhere in BB's literature for that round does it state any caveats about gun selection) that its unsafe to fire out of the .380 that I happen to have available to me. Much safer to use THE WRONG DANG GUN instead of finding a decent .380....or just calling Buffalo Bore to see if its safe."
Did this guy even read what BB had to say about the ammo first?
"1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel--- 1160 fps
2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1149 fps
3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1072 fps
4. Keltec---1061 fps
If it's listed for a keltec then a taurus should handle it.
"a nine is built to handle anything the .380 +p can throw at it". LoL, no.
Yea, just watched it again. Its nothing but a poorly done hatchet job than anything, imo
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Nick Burkhardt
Member
Unsafe to fire out of a Taurus. A Bersa, Glock or Sig should be fine.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
I'm not gonna denigrate the mans tests nor accuse him of anything. His testing videos seem pretty serious and he's put in a lot of work. Not questioning his credibility nor trying to establish any on my behalf.
It just seems a little odd having watched his other testing videos especially his take on running .380 ina 9mm - there is no such designation of .380 +P and I kinda think BB is pushing the limits of standardization *but* my new Beretta Pico states it is capable of .380 +P so....
VooDoo
It just seems a little odd having watched his other testing videos especially his take on running .380 ina 9mm - there is no such designation of .380 +P and I kinda think BB is pushing the limits of standardization *but* my new Beretta Pico states it is capable of .380 +P so....
VooDoo
silicosys4
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Sorry if I offended, but this "review" actually kind of ticks me off and it probably shows.
If someone is going to go online and post a youtube video review of a business's product, you owe it to the business to conduct an ethical and proper review. Spouting off a bunch of unsubstantiated opinion about pressure and safety without consulting or giving BB the opportunity to address the concerns before posting, then using a 9mm to fire the .380 round being reviewed because of "safety" and "pressure" reasons
totally negates any credibility this review might have to me.I tend to look at things from the viewpoint of a business owner and not a consumer though. If I were Buffalo Bore I wouldn't be happy with this review. Not because of the results, those are even better than those published by BB, but because of fact that the reviewer completely ignored what BB has to say about the product in the product description on their webpage and basically reams them for the round doing exactly what BB said it would, even better in fact.
Also, why does the BB as tested penetrate fully twice as deep as any of the standard .380 fmj load I could find gel testing for (22"-25") with only 150-200fps added velocity? Is that normal? A 10-20% gain in velocity giving you a 200% increase in penetration?
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railroader
Member
You know FMJ rounds are known to over penetrate. Here's another you tube video that test regular FMJ 380's and they over penetrate too.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9Wzc7BU6kwAR6j7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByZWc0dGJtBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMQ--?p=9mm+fmj+gelatin+penetration&vid=918761e7d66c52b6b75faf12cb9a6c5a&l=4%3A17&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.607996940938906904%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEkscBbMGp5k&tit=.380+Full+Metal+Jacket+in+Ballistic+Gel&c=0&sigr=11b5jkvlt&sigt=117rh8vg1&age=0&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&fr=mcafee&tt=b
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9Wzc7BU6kwAR6j7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByZWc0dGJtBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMQ--?p=9mm+fmj+gelatin+penetration&vid=918761e7d66c52b6b75faf12cb9a6c5a&l=4%3A17&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.607996940938906904%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEkscBbMGp5k&tit=.380+Full+Metal+Jacket+in+Ballistic+Gel&c=0&sigr=11b5jkvlt&sigt=117rh8vg1&age=0&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asa&fr=mcafee&tt=b
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Absolutely no offense taken. I'm not sure about these tests but the guy doing them seems to have some degree of credibility and doesn't seem like he has an "ax to grind" so I don't think he's deliberately taking a shot at Buffalo Bore.
The only reason I commented is because of the same concerns you have...it's pretty hard to believe the kind of penetration he got despite that fact that it's on video. I'm curious about the ballistic gelatine he used. I have not shot the BB 100 gr. Flat pointed lead but shoot my own 100 gr. FP plated lead bullets (Xtreme) at about the same velocity as he is shooting and I'm not getting anywhere near that kind of penetration *but* I'm not using calibrated gelatine either. Neither am I getting 2X as much penetration as I get with factory or high performance ammunition in the same media.
I probably should leave the conjecture and my comments at the door....I just am skeptical about these tests. I try and not run people down on the 'Net if I disagree. Everyone has a right to their perspective and courtesy is owed no matter what.
VooDoo
edit: See those flat nosed Winchester FMJ's? Man, if I could find a plated lead bullet with that same profile I'd buy 5000 of them so fast it'd make yer head spin. Nice bullet.
The only reason I commented is because of the same concerns you have...it's pretty hard to believe the kind of penetration he got despite that fact that it's on video. I'm curious about the ballistic gelatine he used. I have not shot the BB 100 gr. Flat pointed lead but shoot my own 100 gr. FP plated lead bullets (Xtreme) at about the same velocity as he is shooting and I'm not getting anywhere near that kind of penetration *but* I'm not using calibrated gelatine either. Neither am I getting 2X as much penetration as I get with factory or high performance ammunition in the same media.
I probably should leave the conjecture and my comments at the door....I just am skeptical about these tests. I try and not run people down on the 'Net if I disagree. Everyone has a right to their perspective and courtesy is owed no matter what.
VooDoo
edit: See those flat nosed Winchester FMJ's? Man, if I could find a plated lead bullet with that same profile I'd buy 5000 of them so fast it'd make yer head spin. Nice bullet.
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Sounds right to me too.
On the Video only
That guys velocity/pressure knowledge is a joke. At standard 9mm pressure, a 100 gr lead bullet can go in to around 1400 FPS and the pressure is 33,000 PSI.
The .380 pressure is 20,000 PSI. and 22,000 PSI at +P. Yet sammi requires a minimum proof load of 26,000 PSI to be fired in all no +P rated firearms and a minimum of 26,600PSI out of +P rated firearms.
He does not understand lead bullets or anything about pressure inside the chamber. Lead bullets are typically faster at the same PSI because of less friction inside the firearm. Don't believe this guy on anything he is just some tactical dumb A$$.
That guys velocity/pressure knowledge is a joke. At standard 9mm pressure, a 100 gr lead bullet can go in to around 1400 FPS and the pressure is 33,000 PSI.
The .380 pressure is 20,000 PSI. and 22,000 PSI at +P. Yet sammi requires a minimum proof load of 26,000 PSI to be fired in all no +P rated firearms and a minimum of 26,600PSI out of +P rated firearms.
He does not understand lead bullets or anything about pressure inside the chamber. Lead bullets are typically faster at the same PSI because of less friction inside the firearm. Don't believe this guy on anything he is just some tactical dumb A$$.
dont forget people that you have bone to contend with on a real target and that little 380 with a hollow point can and will be stopped. hints the reason for hard ball ammo in slower cartridges with less mass weight to continue to drive the projectile forward.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Great minds think alike...
Those are the Xtreme bullets I'm already loading and don't get me wrong. I like those a lot *but* I have always wanted something with a less rounded nose and wider meplat like those Winchester rounds only not FMJ. I like plated lead. Same bullets right here...These are my hand loads.
I'd really like a wider meplat and more of a truncated cone bullet in plated lead but have not been able to find one. The Xtreme's are as good as I can locate. Thanks fer lookin' out for me!
VooDoo
Those are the Xtreme bullets I'm already loading and don't get me wrong. I like those a lot *but* I have always wanted something with a less rounded nose and wider meplat like those Winchester rounds only not FMJ. I like plated lead. Same bullets right here...These are my hand loads.
I'd really like a wider meplat and more of a truncated cone bullet in plated lead but have not been able to find one. The Xtreme's are as good as I can locate. Thanks fer lookin' out for me!
VooDoo
I don't always agree with some of his statements but I don't see anything wrong with his testing.
He is using calibrated gel, the Buffalo Bore is penetrating 39" to 45" inches of ordinance gel.
There are some people here on this board who think that is great performance. I personally want a .380 ACP bullet to make a larger wound track and to not zip out the back of my assailant, but to each his own I suppose.
Phaedrus/69
Member
I think the .380 is marginal. Sometimes you will get expansion and penetration but not both at the same time, consistently. In a .380 I guess I would opt for penetration- even "overpenetration"- vs hoping for expansion, too.
But I don't see much need for "+P" in a non-expanding .380 loading. Pretty much all ball .380 loads overpenetrate by the FBI standard so no need to jack the pressure through the roof.
I'm not surprised he had that much gelatin lined up. If you've watched his other videos you'll see he's tested a crapload of .380 loads, so he knows full well that they're gonna overpenetrate. That's just experience on his part.
But I don't see much need for "+P" in a non-expanding .380 loading. Pretty much all ball .380 loads overpenetrate by the FBI standard so no need to jack the pressure through the roof.
I'm not surprised he had that much gelatin lined up. If you've watched his other videos you'll see he's tested a crapload of .380 loads, so he knows full well that they're gonna overpenetrate. That's just experience on his part.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
He and I came to exactly the same conclusion on HP bullets for the .380. The only one I'd shoot is the Hornady XTP with just the right velocity. If you set it up correctly (it varies with the gun and barrel length!) you get just enough penetration and consistent expansion.
The problem with most HP ammunition in the .380 is that you just do not get enough penetration and that gives up 50% of the FBI's most important criteria which is placement and penetration.
VooDoo
The problem with most HP ammunition in the .380 is that you just do not get enough penetration and that gives up 50% of the FBI's most important criteria which is placement and penetration.
VooDoo
rswartsell
Member
Dr. Nefario and the Fart Gun?
We've come a long way from references to Kieth, Cooper, Askins, Jordan et. al., haven't we?
We've come a long way from references to Kieth, Cooper, Askins, Jordan et. al., haven't we?
Why would you guys think that the Pocket Guns and Gear website got around 18 1/2 and 20 inches penetration after shooting through a thin layer of leather and two thicknesses of denim with those same two loads from a 2 1/2 inch barreled Kahr .380? Other tests posted online show similar numbers. Why did Ammo Quest get more than twice the penetration of other testers? Seems to the answer to that is important in order to properly judge which tests are a more accurate represensation of the load.
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Johnny_B_Goode
member
I was watching a video on why the FBI switched to 9mm. According to the FBI data which came from 1,000's of real shootings, not ballistic gel we are being fed a bunch of snake oil to buy more expensive ammo. No handgun from 9mm to 10mm has enough velocity to create hydrostatic shock. All that is important is that the bullet will penetrate 18" and shoot accurately. Those ballistic gel tests are nothing like shooting a real human. Real human flesh is elastic or it stretches. A trauma surgeon that has stitched up hundreds of shooting victims cannot tell the difference in a wound from a 9mm FMJ and a 10mm gold dot or whatever your favorite bullet/caliber might be. I tend to believe the trauma surgeons over some snake oil salesman.
I shot this deer with a 7.62x54r 180gr sp. If handguns could create hydrostatic shock the wounds would look like this.
The FBI reports are as long as war and peace. I will just settle for the videos.
The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo - Part 1
http://youtu.be/Iy71umadb6k
The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo - Part 2
http://youtu.be/DNfuF3JYWM8
More snake oil. The myth of over penetration. If you are concerned with over penetration you need to take a hunters safety course. You should never fire a gun when you do not know what is behind your target or you know for a fact someone is behind the target. You are not NYPD. You cannot shoot a dozen innocent bystanders and get a paid vacation to drink it off. You will go to prison for a long time and become intimate with a guy named Bubba. If you are reasonably sure there is noting behind your target a handgun bullet will stop very quick after passing through the human body. The shots that miss the bad guy are an issue. A shot that misses a bad guy can travel a long way and or penetrate barriers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-O0sXd9hg
I shot this deer with a 7.62x54r 180gr sp. If handguns could create hydrostatic shock the wounds would look like this.
The FBI reports are as long as war and peace. I will just settle for the videos.
The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo - Part 1
http://youtu.be/Iy71umadb6k
The FBI Returning to 9mm Ammo - Part 2
http://youtu.be/DNfuF3JYWM8
More snake oil. The myth of over penetration. If you are concerned with over penetration you need to take a hunters safety course. You should never fire a gun when you do not know what is behind your target or you know for a fact someone is behind the target. You are not NYPD. You cannot shoot a dozen innocent bystanders and get a paid vacation to drink it off. You will go to prison for a long time and become intimate with a guy named Bubba. If you are reasonably sure there is noting behind your target a handgun bullet will stop very quick after passing through the human body. The shots that miss the bad guy are an issue. A shot that misses a bad guy can travel a long way and or penetrate barriers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U-O0sXd9hg
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