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Ammo Used By Alaskan Officials For Bears

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by rodwha, Jan 22, 2014.

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  1. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    On a backpacking forum a fellow is mentioning using buckshot for bear protection.

    I listed evidence from testing by the US Forest Service and the limited penetration of pellets. He then gave youtube video of the penetration of 000 buck, which was impressive, and much more than what the USFS showed in their testing (old it seemed).

    In his evidence he showed a 1 oz 2 3/4" slug only penetrating 2/5 of the distance the pellets did.

    I cannot seem to find anything on the ammo the Alaskan officials use for bear, but I've seen how they use slugs, though I cannot seem to find anything on it.

    Can anyone help?
     
  2. roklok

    roklok Member

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    The State Troopers, which includes Wildlife Troopers, use Rottweil Brenneke 2.75 inch 1 1/8 ounce slugs.
     
  3. Torian

    Torian Member

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    The Brenneke slugs are great penetrators. I've heard of either the Special Forces short magnum or Max Barrier Penetration slugs being used as well. They all use the same hardened lead alloy slugs that deform very little on impact.

    The Special Forces short mags are pretty easy on the shoulder too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  4. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    Can anyone provide a link?
     
  5. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    The slug from his evidence must have been some sort of hollow point or otherwise easily expanded slugs as it barely penetrated 12" or so.

    I was still surprised by the penetration of the 000 pellets (~18" in 20% gelatin).
     
  6. hartcreek

    hartcreek member

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    That is why I load 000 buck and fill the voids with BBs ad I am postig how much 231 or red dot I use but if you are not ready for them oh boy......
     
  7. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    Is this load for bears?

    If so why?
     
  8. Tony617

    Tony617 Member

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    What about Brenneke 3" Black Magic slugs? I haven't tried them yet but I have ordered some. Right now I have only tried the 2 3/4" Brenneke KO slugs.
     
  9. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    I somewhat ceased looking online for ammunition as my zip code (Los Angeles) is a no-fly-zone for most ammo shippers.

    I can't seem to easily find Brenneke through my local ammunition retailers. I'd love to have a stash of Brenneke or that Special Forces short mag discussed here. I'll be camping this spring in bear country; I'm looking to have a greater sense of security.


    :)
     
  10. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    000 will carry more juice to the target individually than the smaller buckshot sizes, but forgive my doubts about your friends research. A 1oz slug with about 2700 FPE at the muzzle only penetrating 2/5th the distance of .35 caliber 000 pellets? Was he shooting into sand where the slug just desintegrated? I've participated in 4 FBI protocol tests using foster, sabot and and Brenneke slugs, and unless it is a Winchester segmented slug into bare gel they'll all penetrate like crazy. And in a real-world oops; I (in my far younger, dumber days) once missed my target and had a Remington slugger 1oz slug penetrate a clapboard barn wall, an 8x8 supporting post, a 4x4 stall end post, and the other barn wall on its way to wherever it landed. (Thank the Lord the barn was old and unused anymore)
    I would have no qualms loading a 12 gauge up with slugs in a bear situation like you describe.
     
  11. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

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    I have zero practical experience so this is only gleaned from reading...

    It's been proven that hollow-point hollow base slugs, like Foster-type, expand too much to reliably penetrate very deeply. I doubt that's a good thing for bears or huge hogs. The Brenneke Black Magic and relatively new Federal hardened whatcha-ma-call-ums probably do penetrate plenty.
     
  12. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    This guy is a poster on a backpacking forum where the conversation went from a 1 lb .22 rifle to bears.

    This guy promoted using staggered slugs and 000/0000 buckshot.

    Another felt it was a good idea as a bear might be slowed down by that buckshot to get a better shot with the slug, but then went on to say I'd be hunting if I shot a bear that wasn't chewing on my leg all ready. Funny as it was he who stated shooting a charging bear.

    Many stated a gun wan't necessary, that bear spray is the most you'd need. I mentioned that I would certainly want bear spray as it's 90 something percent effective, and I'd prefer to not need to shoot one. But that I'd carry a handgun in the event that the spray didn't work, as well as for any other threats, but that it would be used because it was indeed chewing on my leg.

    Here's the thread:

    http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=832107219;t=9991169080

    Here's the videos showing the penetration of shotgun projectiles:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLun92bR4BA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftrCtOyLrmU#t=26
     
  13. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    Makes sense to me. It's t3h inn4rn3tz, after all... *lol*

    :)


    Found some Special Forces short magnum loads... but they won't ship to my zip.

    noice.
     
  14. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    See if this is the document you had in mind - http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

    Buckshot for bears? NOT ME! Hard slugs maybe, Brennekes or Dixies, or the new Federal deep penetrator that BroBee tested, but I wouldn't even use the typical Foster slug on a bear. Even the local black bears...
     
  15. Inebriated

    Inebriated Member

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    Fred, what thinks you about sabot slugs? I don't know of anyone who loads a solid/hardcast sabot, but my thinking is that it launches a .50" bullet in the 430 to 600 gr weight range from 1500-1800fps. Garrett's .45-70 540gr offering is only moving 1550fps.

    This Lightfield is a 1-3/8oz (600gr) slug at 1800fps! Whether that's in a barrel length that is remotely maneuverable, who knows, but just looking at these two companies, it appears that the sabot IS capable of outdoing some of the hottest .45-70 loads on the market. I'm off base in that assumption? I know very little about sabots, only recently developed a passing interest.
     
  16. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    Fred: That's what I sited as a profession opinion on using buckshot (or not).

    I just seem to find anything where Alaska is arming their officials with 12 ga slugs, though I've seen they arm them with a Remington shotgun.

    I've seen it some time back that they used slugs, but I don't know where I saw that.
     
  17. JHansenAK47

    JHansenAK47 Member

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    +1
    Shotguns are close range, so getting charged is a reality. A hard slug will go through bone. Knocking out a bears shoulder will discourage a continued charge.
     
  18. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

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    anything non hollow point.the layers of fat may cause the hollow point to open prematurely,decreasing penetration,and may not reach vitals.this will piss off the bear and increase the load in your briefs,impedeing your ability to depart the scene
     
  19. goon

    goon Member

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    Without a doubt, for defense against a bear in Alaska, I'd use a slug over any buck shot any day of the week. A good slug... AKA a Brenneke.

    But first, I'd use common sense and a little healthy respect.

    I'm not an expert on bears, but I've seen a lot of black bears in the wild, some of them a lot closer than either I or the bear had intended. I've never had one act even the slightest bit aggressive. They either run away leaving a trail of broken trees and churned up mud behind them or just sort of wander off and do their own thing.
    I actually like seeing them in the wild. You know you're not in some excuse for a park when a black bear wanders out ten yards in front of you and looks at you like he's surprised to see you there.

    So I'd say treat them with respect, don't act stupid, load your shotgun with the best stuff you can find, and enjoy being somewhere that you can actually see a bear. Unless you threaten its cubs or fall asleep in a puddle of bacon grease, you'll almost certainly be fine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  20. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

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    Remember reading years ago where Park Munsey who had Alaskan Master Guide Lic. No.1 I believe gave up his H&H 375 for a cut down Win. Model 12 with staggered loads of 00 Buck and Slugs when he had to dispatch a wounded bear in the Alders for a client.
     
  21. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    Well said, goon; and that's the plan. It's pretty much my approach to almost everything, except for going near cubs in the wild or falling asleep in a puddle of bacon grease. lol. funny analogy. Thanks.

    :)
     
  22. farm23

    farm23 Member

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    I have never used a shotgun on bears but if I did it would be a solid slug. I have been close to black bears many time and never felt threaten. Our local game warden says there has not be a serious attack since the 30's. I know there have been reported attacks in other states but they are rare so I do not see a reason to carry a shotgun in black bear country. All that said a brown bear is another matter and a shotgun or something substantial [a solid slug should get the job done] is a good idea. I have killed brown bears and it takes a lot of punch to get to a vital area. Bear spray is ok if the wind blowing in the right direction.
     
  23. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    I recall the original BRI sabot slugs - they were hard enough to go through a 1970s car bumper. IIRC they had a tendency to break in half at the 'wasp waist' though.

    I don't know of anything like the BRIs available today...
     
  24. OrangePwrx9

    OrangePwrx9 Member

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    Winchester bought out BRI, Fred. They're still available under the Winchester brand...at around $15 a 5-round box. For awhile, Winchester credited BRI on the box; not sure they still do.

    I've kept track of them as I have a couple of rifled shotguns that'll shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards consistently with those things. However at $3.00 a round, I'm content with 3 shot groups.
     
  25. eldon519

    eldon519 Member

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    I think the main thing you are seeing is that the USFS testing wasn't in ballistic gelatin. It was a wet mix of silt and saw dust. I'd expect a test in gelatin probably would show a lot more penetration, but if you test a hard cast slug vs 000 in the same medium, I'd bet on the slug for penetration.
     
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