Ammo Used By Alaskan Officials For Bears
- Thread starter rodwha
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Kuyong_Chuin
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Was watching a show awhile back, don't remember the name of the show off hand, but they were in Alaska the officers had to take down a brown bear that had got into a populated area and was aggressive. The officer used his 12 gauge pump from his patrol car and loaded it with slugs to take down the bear.
I've Googled about everything I can think of and still can't find a definitive response. At best I see they are them with Remington shotguns, but that doesn't mean they aren't loaded with buckshot :roll eyes:
And this guy seems to know his gun stuff to some degree as he had stated, other than the .410, shotguns gauges don't use a decimal point like a caliber.
And this guy seems to know his gun stuff to some degree as he had stated, other than the .410, shotguns gauges don't use a decimal point like a caliber.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I've kept track of them as I have a couple of rifled shotguns that'll shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards consistently with those things. However at $3.00 a round, I'm content with 3 shot groups.
What are the projectiles made from these days? How hard are they? The older ones were a really hard lead alloy ... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BRI+12+gauge+.500+sabot+bullets.-a03286621
What are the projectiles made from these days? How hard are they? The older ones were a really hard lead alloy ... http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BRI+12+gauge+.500+sabot+bullets.-a03286621
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
That is because the .410 is a caliber not a gauge. The 28, 20, 16, 12,10, 8, 6, & 4 are all gauges. The 4-8 gauges are old guns and they are rarely seen anymore. If I remember correctly using the 4 gauge as an example, it would take 4 lead balls the size of the bore to equal 1 lbs. The same goes for the other gauges, 12 bore size lead balls to equal 1 lbs for the 12 gauge and so forth. It is bore size lead ball times the amount of those balls to equal 1 lbs that determines the gauge. Someone else might be able to explain it better that I can but that is how I was told how it was figured.
plumberroy
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One thing about the BRI sabots the where designed and will shoot decent in a cyl. bore smoothbore shotgun . I have shot 4" groups at 50 yards from my smoothbore slug gun with them.
So they may be a choice if you couldn't find brenneke's or the hard federal slugs.
Roy
So they may be a choice if you couldn't find brenneke's or the hard federal slugs.
Roy
artee
Member
A few comments:
BrassFetcher's tests on the links above for 000 buck and a WINCHESTER Foster 1 oz slug were into 20% (NOT FBI spec 10%) ballistic gel. The penetration in 20% gel is far less. Do your research to discover the difference. It is NOT a 2:1 ratio.
Labs do this (and smart "home testers") so that there standard size block has a better chance of stopping/catching the projectile, then using the well established math to correct the results for the "standard". Also, as in the case of buck and slug, you can literally blast to smithereens a 'standard' size block. There isn't a block afterwards, just widely scattered chunks. You go with a HUGH non standard size block or increase the density
On BRI sabots. Chase my posts. The 1966 Gun Digest had a large 5+ page article on them. They were tested in MANY types of shotguns: doubles side by & stacked with many chokes NOT JUST cylinder to improved cylinder. In Single shots, bolts, pumps and autos. Again in all chokes including full. This was well before "rifled barrels" were a manufacturer option. They were made with smoothbores in mind. There was a zinc projectile and a lead projectile. The zinc had the same dimensions but due to metal density was 260 grain instead of "an ounce". The zinc were much faster and marketed for police use. My hunting experience and antidotes are mostly from after Winchester's acquisition of the product. They didn't seem to have the 'slap down' of a full bore slug. Winchester added a hollow point cavity to them. Nobody I've talked to has recovered one that looked like it expanded (as opposed to just mangling the nose a bit) or on pass throughs thought it had acted like an expanding bullet. No gaping exits. Performance often disappointing to these guys, with comments comparing it to the same as a .50 cal muzzleloader ball. Save your indignant defense of blackpowder. We had all generally been slug hunters that switched to our .45 and .50 patched ball rifles for GUN season due to their accuracy increase and "good enough" on whitetail power as the regs changed. The users of BRI/Win slugs I'd encountered almost to a man had gone to it with .50 patched ball experience behind them, hoping for an improvement and seeing less authority than a fullbore 12 ga slug, less accuracy than their "mountain rifles". Blackpowder with saboted .44 and .45 pistol bullets were still on the horizon. They continue to sell in southern Michigan and northern Indiana but I see no product difference from the 1990 versions.
BrassFetcher's tests on the links above for 000 buck and a WINCHESTER Foster 1 oz slug were into 20% (NOT FBI spec 10%) ballistic gel. The penetration in 20% gel is far less. Do your research to discover the difference. It is NOT a 2:1 ratio.
Labs do this (and smart "home testers") so that there standard size block has a better chance of stopping/catching the projectile, then using the well established math to correct the results for the "standard". Also, as in the case of buck and slug, you can literally blast to smithereens a 'standard' size block. There isn't a block afterwards, just widely scattered chunks. You go with a HUGH non standard size block or increase the density
On BRI sabots. Chase my posts. The 1966 Gun Digest had a large 5+ page article on them. They were tested in MANY types of shotguns: doubles side by & stacked with many chokes NOT JUST cylinder to improved cylinder. In Single shots, bolts, pumps and autos. Again in all chokes including full. This was well before "rifled barrels" were a manufacturer option. They were made with smoothbores in mind. There was a zinc projectile and a lead projectile. The zinc had the same dimensions but due to metal density was 260 grain instead of "an ounce". The zinc were much faster and marketed for police use. My hunting experience and antidotes are mostly from after Winchester's acquisition of the product. They didn't seem to have the 'slap down' of a full bore slug. Winchester added a hollow point cavity to them. Nobody I've talked to has recovered one that looked like it expanded (as opposed to just mangling the nose a bit) or on pass throughs thought it had acted like an expanding bullet. No gaping exits. Performance often disappointing to these guys, with comments comparing it to the same as a .50 cal muzzleloader ball. Save your indignant defense of blackpowder. We had all generally been slug hunters that switched to our .45 and .50 patched ball rifles for GUN season due to their accuracy increase and "good enough" on whitetail power as the regs changed. The users of BRI/Win slugs I'd encountered almost to a man had gone to it with .50 patched ball experience behind them, hoping for an improvement and seeing less authority than a fullbore 12 ga slug, less accuracy than their "mountain rifles". Blackpowder with saboted .44 and .45 pistol bullets were still on the horizon. They continue to sell in southern Michigan and northern Indiana but I see no product difference from the 1990 versions.
OrangePwrx9
Member
I've no idea what they're made from or how hard they are these days, Fred. Only thing I can recall is that all the deer I've taken with them, but one, required a follow-up shot. They weren't particularly good killers. That might be due to excessive penetration (pass-through hits); might also be due to being significantly under bore size. The deer which was a one-shot kill was the most recent and taken with a Winchester-BRI.
I believe the long, hour-glass shaped projectile was meant to go unstable and tumble upon entering flesh, but that's just a guess. Maybe it was meant to but didn't always.
I've seen them for sale regularly at Wal-Mart. At the current price, they tend to stay on the shelves.
No doubt, and something I pointed out wasn't a good idea. He then went on a tirade of how I wasn't doing things legally, but mentioning al of the things he was suggesting. It was quite odd.
It began with someone saying:
"If you must carry a gun definitely think shotgun, or at least shot shells for a 357 or larger. Anything less is indeed dead weight unless you have a heart lung shot from a great distance but then you'd be hunting, not defending yourself. "
To which I replied it's never suggested to use shot shells. Then it went to the fellow who suggested staggering buck (000/0000) and slugs.
This guy also stated that Lewis and Clark's team were armed with .36 cal muzzleloaders! Seriously? They had 1 that I'm aware of. The rest were larger than .50 cal from what I can tell without really getting into it.
I began to give post links but there are just too many, but it was incredible how this guy began to try and turn it around on me as though I was the one recommending the things he stated.
I finally had to wave the white flag as it wasn't my intentions for it to become what it did, but I had a hard time allowing off the wall things being stated.
The guy they were slamming from the git go did seem a bit nutty with some of his responses and whatnot, but it still became a crazy thread!
Of course I'd assume the majority of these guys don't believe anyone should have a gun or hunt.
It began with someone saying:
"If you must carry a gun definitely think shotgun, or at least shot shells for a 357 or larger. Anything less is indeed dead weight unless you have a heart lung shot from a great distance but then you'd be hunting, not defending yourself. "
To which I replied it's never suggested to use shot shells. Then it went to the fellow who suggested staggering buck (000/0000) and slugs.
This guy also stated that Lewis and Clark's team were armed with .36 cal muzzleloaders! Seriously? They had 1 that I'm aware of. The rest were larger than .50 cal from what I can tell without really getting into it.
I began to give post links but there are just too many, but it was incredible how this guy began to try and turn it around on me as though I was the one recommending the things he stated.
I finally had to wave the white flag as it wasn't my intentions for it to become what it did, but I had a hard time allowing off the wall things being stated.
The guy they were slamming from the git go did seem a bit nutty with some of his responses and whatnot, but it still became a crazy thread!
Of course I'd assume the majority of these guys don't believe anyone should have a gun or hunt.
xXxplosive
Member
12ga. = .72 Cal.
rodwa, I am not sure what you mean by not getting a definitive response. In my first response, post #2, I said that they use Brenneke slugs. The troopers use Remington 870s, with Brenneke slugs, and the last I knew, Federal flight control 00 buckshot. They do not recommend using the buckshot for bear purposes, Troopers are trained to use the Brennekes for possible bear problems. When the Troopers transitioned to the Federal Flite Control buckshot, they stopped using Vang-Comp barrels on the 870s as they had previously. This transition occurred around 2005-2006.
I have first hand knowledge of the above information. The wildlife troopers also use a variety of confiscated or seized long arms for official use, I have seen anything from Pre-64 Model 70s to Remington 600s to Marlin Guide guns utilized by Wildlife Troopers.
I have first hand knowledge of the above information. The wildlife troopers also use a variety of confiscated or seized long arms for official use, I have seen anything from Pre-64 Model 70s to Remington 600s to Marlin Guide guns utilized by Wildlife Troopers.
By that I meant a specific load. I.e. this load by Remington or Winchester or such, something I can post a link to as proof this is what the experts use. Otherwise it leaves the door open for contention.
I know they use slugs as I've read it. I also know that no one would suggest buckshot for brown bears, and possibly not for black bears either.
I know they use slugs as I've read it. I also know that no one would suggest buckshot for brown bears, and possibly not for black bears either.
Tom Held
Member
454
The park ranger I know in Alaska carries a 454 Ruger Casull not a shotgun. Considers this his gun of last resort.
The park ranger I know in Alaska carries a 454 Ruger Casull not a shotgun. Considers this his gun of last resort.
Torian
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Sidearms are a last resort / final contingency. A rifle or shotgun should always be the primary weapon system.
.454 is plenty powerful, but I'd only be reaching for it after I emptied 5, 3 in magnum slugs into that charging bear.
For me, as this discussion there was about backpacking long distances, as well as being along the Appalachian Trail where there are only black bears, I'd really on bear spray with a .45 cal revolver as my final defensive weapon.
A long arm would be quite heavy along with my pack, and would possibly get hung up on my backpack when I needed it most. A pistol makes more sense to me as it weighs much less and is much handier.
Were I in brown bear territory I'd rethink my strategy a little as my pistol wouldn't be as powerful as I'd like.
A long arm would be quite heavy along with my pack, and would possibly get hung up on my backpack when I needed it most. A pistol makes more sense to me as it weighs much less and is much handier.
Were I in brown bear territory I'd rethink my strategy a little as my pistol wouldn't be as powerful as I'd like.
DM~
Member
Good luck with THAT thinking! I've shot/killed a few brown bears, seen a lot more shot too. I've seen a shoulder blown out and useless, and other than the bear looking like he stumbled, kept on like a freight train!
Anyway, here's an interesting buckshot chart,
DM
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
.
.45ACP and 00 buck FTW. Don't pwn any 9. (Most .45ACP JHP is 185 gr.; the ball stuff is 230)
So when the bear claw swipes a gnarly gash through the 3/4" ply sidewall of my teardrop trailer, I can squeeze off a few rounds from my 1911 while my wife positions my 870... is that what that chart is telling me?
.45ACP and 00 buck FTW. Don't pwn any 9. (Most .45ACP JHP is 185 gr.; the ball stuff is 230)
So when the bear claw swipes a gnarly gash through the 3/4" ply sidewall of my teardrop trailer, I can squeeze off a few rounds from my 1911 while my wife positions my 870... is that what that chart is telling me?
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