Ammunition no longer manufactured in the United States

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by orpington, Mar 27, 2016.

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  1. orpington

    orpington Member

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    The definition of an antique firearm, is, partially, as follows:

    The definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available in ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    Source: www.atf.gov

    Curiously, I cannot find a link anywhere on the atf site that defines or lists ammunition that is not readily available or manufactured. Does anyone have such a list, or, better yet, a link to the atf site that lists this?
     
  2. joem1945

    joem1945 Member

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    I've never seen a list like that. I have one or two that ammunition hasn't been made in over 100 years. If it was I'd buy some.
     
  3. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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  4. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Not clear, is it the ammo itself that is C&R for purposes of cartridge collecting or is a firearm in those calibers C&R?

    How can 7.62x54R be considered not readily available?
     
  5. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    They don't have it at Walmart?
     
  6. HankR

    HankR Member

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    That would make a .22lr C&R around here
     
  7. MAKster

    MAKster Member

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    That list of curios or relics ammunition is a totally separate matter from the replica antiques provision about ammo not manufactured in the US or readily available in commerce. Also, if you go to page 11 of that document it says that "Ammunition is no longer classified as "Curios or Relics" since the Congress in 1986 removed the interstate controls over ammunition under the GCA."

    I've never seen a list of calibers that can be used in replica antique center fire firearms. I suspect it's not been more clearly defined because as a practical matter no one making replica antiques in large numbers would even bother to chamber it in a round that was not available since few people would buy them.
     
  8. deadin

    deadin Member

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    I don't know that this has been properly defined as of yet. Just what consists of "ordinary channels"? WalMart? LGS? Regular mail-order? (i.e. MidWay) Specialty mail-order?
    Also "No longer manufactured in the U.S." needs some definition if they are going to enforce this. Buffalo Arms "manufactures" a lot of different obsolete ammunition..
     
  9. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I'm not sure that it is considered "not readily available" (heck, even .22LR would have fit that criteria a couple of years ago!)

    If you're wondering about the rifle with which it is most-often associated, the reason it makes the cut (the Russian one, at least) is that it was made in a country that no longer exists (the USSR.)

    Am I correct on that, guys, that only the Russian M/N rifles would be C&R eligible?
     
  10. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    7.7Jap is a good example of this. Hornady occasionally contracts PPU to make a run to be sold under their metric line, but it is neither domestically manufactured or generally available.
     
  11. zb338

    zb338 Member

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    How about the 25/20 Winchester. There isn't even any brass
    or loaded cartridges around. Winchester says it's discontinued
    Remington doesn't say anything except there is none available
    right now. It's seasonal which means (if they feel like making some).

    Zeke
     
  12. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    Their was something (a list of calibers if memory serves) on the ATF sight a few years back, 3-4. I sold a Sharps rifle to a guy in Washington state and he wanted me to ship it directly to him saying it was a reproduction of an antique in an obsolete caliber, mine was 50-90 and therefore legal. It had to be both antique/reproduction and obsolete caliber.

    I didn't really buy his theory and he emailed me the ATF links, I tried to go back and look a couple months ago but now the links don't work.

    I suspect something is their, just really buried and hard to find.

    And for what it's worth, you can buy 50-90 ammo all day from a (very) few different places, you certainly can get it.
     
  13. yugorpk

    yugorpk member

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    Ammunition is like oil. It will never run out. The price will just go up to the point it becomes unaffordable. Every kind of ammunition you can imagine, including the ones you wouldnt think are still produced or available , are still available and/or produced. 7.7 Jap? You can still buy it ( not hard to find at all ) . 25-20 Win? Yep, its $60 a box. Pinfire? Not a problem.
     
  14. orpington

    orpington Member

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    After a day of working (on Easter), I am reviewing these responses.

    <Sigh> The ATF information is sufficiently buried to make finding this information difficult. Is this intentional?

    And, YES, by the definition provided by ATF, I would indeed argue that, a few years ago, ,22 LR was not readily available.

    If Hillary gets elected, it could make many more rounds difficult to get, don't you think?

    It PAYS to be able to reload, now doesn't it?
     
  15. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Nor are you likely to find one. Things just don't work that way.

    In a prosecution for an alleged violation of some provision of the Gun Control Act of 1968 if whether the gun in question is an antique and therefore not subject to the law the defendant is charged with violating is a disputed fact, the defendant would put on evidence that it is an antique. The prosecution would be putting on evidence that the gun is not an antique. And if the question of the availability of the ammunition used by the gun is material to that question, each side will be introducing evidence to make its respective case. Ultimately it would most likely be decided by a jury.
     
  16. the Real Alpo

    the Real Alpo Member

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    I'm puzzled by the question.

    If I buy a Remington double derringer, made in 1895, it's an antique. Ammo is irrelevant.

    If I buy one made in 1902, it is NOT an antique, and again, ammo is irrelevant.

    If I have one custom made, chambered in 41RF, now THAT would be an antique, as it is a replica chambered for a cartridge not made in America and not readily available.

    But WHO is making these replicas? Who makes a Henry or a Yellowboy in 44 Henry Flat? Who makes a Remington derringer in 41RF? Who makes a Single Action Army in 450 Ely?

    If no one is making them, why does it matter? Because that's the only time ammo matters. When it's a replica.
     
  17. yugorpk

    yugorpk member

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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
  18. joem1945

    joem1945 Member

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    11.7X57 Danish is what I need. I'd really like to find a original rim fire 11.7 Danish. The center fire cartridges I can make.
     
  19. the Real Alpo

    the Real Alpo Member

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    That Navy Arms 41?

    It was made in South America. Probably by CBC, since they are the major ammo maker down there.

    Not made in the US.
     
  20. yugorpk

    yugorpk member

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    I dont think the ATF cares where it was made. Its still readily available.
     
  21. the Real Alpo

    the Real Alpo Member

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    You wish to argue. I don't. Believe what you want.
     
  22. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Uberti.
    While the vast majority of their 1860 Henry repros are in .44-40 for actual shooting, they did run off a small batch in .44 Henry Flat for collectors who wanted authenticity at a repro price. I do wonder how many of these got defarbed and artificially aged to be sold as real Henrys.
     
  23. yugorpk

    yugorpk member

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    (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    Not arguing. Just pointing out the obvious. "AND" is a very powerful term in legalese right up there with "SHALL". If you have ammo that is not longer produced in the United States AND is no longer available through ordinary channels of commerce then you have a case to call a 41 RF new production gun an antique. That is not the case. The 41RF is available through ordinary channels of commerce new production and in whatever quantity you would like to buy. The AND in the regulation being the modifier. If you could only buy it through the secondary market you'd be fine. That is not the case.
     
  24. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    So while not made in the U. S. it is available through ordinary channels of commerce. Therefore a gun using that ammunition, even though a replica of a gun made before 1899, would not be an antique. In order for such a replica to be an antique both conditions relative to the ammunition must be satisfied: (1) the ammunition must no longer be manufactured in the United States; and (2) the ammunition must not be available through ordinary channels of commerce.

    If either one of those two conditions pertaining to ammunition is not satisfied, the replica gun is not an antique.

    If you don't wish to argue, now would be an excellent time to stop arguing.
     
  25. TruthTellers

    TruthTellers member

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    I surmise the reason BATFE doesn't have a master list of ammunition they consider no longer manufactured/available in ordinary channels of commercial trade is because once they release a list, everyone will know what is no longer considered currently manufactured or in ordinary channels of trade and then the ammo will become more sought after because the guns will no longer need go through an FFL and the NICS.

    BATFE would rather keep things vague and ambiguous so if they don't like you they can charge you with a crime under the direction of President Clinton.
     
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