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Ammunition using propellants other than gunpowder?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by zero_chances, Dec 6, 2006.

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  1. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    Glockfan.45
    http://www.powerlabs.org/railgun2.htm

    Hope you like long reads. Its actually a functional rail gun with several tests to its credit. Seems more like proof of concept to me, but supposedly, it actually works.
     
  2. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    CTDonath mentioned it in his post...IIRC, Daisy (Yes, the BB Gun 'Daisy' Company) experimented with a caseless .22 ammo sometime in the 1960's.

    Called it the "VL" round....now what "VL" meant :confused: :confused:
     
  3. tinygnat219

    tinygnat219 Member

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    NOT a dumb question, a Good thread header!

    Check this out, it's an Australian company called Metal Storm:

    http://www.metalstorm.com/

    The future of Artillery. No Gunpowder, no breech, no moving parts other than a magazine and a barrel.

    TJ
     
  4. unspellable

    unspellable Member

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    No powder cartridge

    The idea of an air gun using cartridges containing CO2 behind the bullet has been tinkered with. While it worked, I don't know that the idea ever went very far.

    When I was a kid we cooked up a cartridge with a BB propelled by a cap such as used in toy cap guns.
     
  5. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    The O'Dwyer design uses a propelant that is either solid or a powder. It is just casesless.

    By the way, there is a breech and if there wasn't, then the last shot wouldn't have anything to push off of and contain the expanding gasses. :)
     
  6. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    http://www.spanamwar.com/dynamite.htm Spanish American war vintage

    Search on dynamite guns. This is a little one. There was a big one mounted on a ship of that period. I have some naval book with a picture of it.
     
  7. zero_chances

    zero_chances Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    To be more specific though, i was thinking of a self contained cartridge using a propellant other than smokelss powder. Is it even possible?
     
  8. Novus Collectus

    Novus Collectus Member

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    The Babcock air pistol (revolver). It had the pellet and the compressed air inside the cases that were loaded into a cylinder like a regular revolver.

    I also vaguely recall an experimental gun for the army that used high voltage passing through a catridge containing water. The water vaporised really fast and was the propellant. I think each round was in a brass cartridge, water and all.
    Conceivably the same could be done with shoulder fired guns, but I'm not too sure how much power would be needed and how heavy the power supply would be.
     
  9. eastwood44mag

    eastwood44mag Member

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    There's a Mexican company, I think the name is Aguila. They make rounds filled with an explosive gas. I don't know what it is, but I think the line is called Super Colibri or something like that. $2.50 for 50 rounds of .22LR. They're near silent, but have almost no power (read: will stick in a target barrel, won't cycle an action).
     
  10. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    So far as I know, the Colibri's are just a .22 with no powder, just priming compound.
     
  11. Kingson

    Kingson Member

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    I have one of those Daisy VL rifles that takes .22 caseless ammo. The propellent is "glued" to the back of the bullet. I have fired it and it works good.
     
  12. streakr

    streakr Member

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    Anybody remember the "Mythbusters" episode with the salami rocket? They showed that a model rocket engine in a salami would ignite the salami and provide extra thrust.

    Think about that the next time you have a salami sandwich!!

    This may be off topic but it's funny!

    streakr
     
  13. tellner

    tellner member

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    Anyone ever read Roger Zelazny's (ztl) The Guns of Avalon? The hero needs to conquer a world where gunpowder doesn't explode. He accidentally discovers that jeweler's rouge from another world does.
     
  14. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Where did you get the idea there's no gunpowder? Metal Storm is nothing more than a modern version of a Chambers Swivel Gun, which had a stack of bullets and powder in the barrel and a fuse designed to set one off after the other. Metal Storm's advantage is extremely rapid fire for use by ships in electronic anti-missile systems and the like. It has no practical application in small arms.
     
  15. GigaBuist

    GigaBuist Member

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    Pretty sure they've prototyped MetalStorm handguns.

    I agree... it's a long ways from being practical, but it's been tried.
     
  16. zero_chances

    zero_chances Member

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    GigaBuist:
    I have seen a video somewhere of a pistol very similar to that. It fired 3 bullets in succession. High speed camera showed that the bullets hit in nearly the same hole one after the other.

    It was a really neat video
     
  17. Zero_DgZ

    Zero_DgZ Member

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    But the GyroJet did use gunpowder: Conventional nitrocellulose, in fact, cast into a single grain.

    Do air rifles count?
     
  18. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    I read that book. Didn't the troops use FALs? I gave up on the Amber series after a bit.

    I hate magic books where they cross over to our world and guess what guns don't work.

    Ever read - Brian Daley - where a M113 APC from VietNam lands in magic land and the 50 BMGs work fine -

    Oops - thread hijack but we have exhausted the original topic.
     
  19. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN ^ The avatar says it all.

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    Spin, spin, spin

    Just to round things out, although it did not have a case, Hatcher ("Notebook") reports a centrifugal machine gun where a disc which looked much like a centrigual pump impeller was spun around 1800 RPM IIRC and ball bearings were fed in at the center. French invention, I think. I can provide details if desired.

    The GyroJet cartridge looked much like a .45 ACP, but had three or four holes drilled in the back end at an angle to provide spin stabilization. Again, if I recall correctly, the hammer struck the front of the cartridge, driving it back against a fixed firing pin, and as the whole cartridge blew itself forward, it pushed the hammer back down, thereby re-cocking it. On the "chambered" round exiting, a new round popped up from the magazine.

    A picture of the GyroJet round (scroll down):

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=61127216
     
  20. learn2shoot

    learn2shoot member

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    How about this...

    Take one of those little power pods of compressed air you put into an air gun, find a diameter of pipe to put it into with the puncture hole facing backwards. use a trigger, spring, hammer mechanism to pop a whole in the pods. I have not tried this, and might not, but I think it would work...
     
  21. tellner

    tellner member

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    GEM, the cool thing about that particular book was that he made them work :)
     
  22. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN ^ The avatar says it all.

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    SPIN OR FIN

    You'll have to either fin it or spin it or get the ruddy bloody hell out of the way of it flying around uncontrolled. I was trying to figure out how to keep fins on it as it cools to below-zero temps as the gas escapes. It will shrink, thereby breaking any glue bonds. The glue will become brittle at the low temps involved, and will lose any adhesion to the cartridge, so good-by fins.

    But figuring you punch an .050" hole in it, the resulting initial thrust will be almost 2 pounds. Guessing that a full cartridge weighs about 2 oz (?) the acceleration would be about 16 gee. (Someone check this.)

    (They contain compressed CO2 at about 1000 psi, by the way, as well as a small quantity of lubricating oil --not air.)
     
  23. mrmeval

    mrmeval Member

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  24. 230RN
    • Contributing Member

    230RN ^ The avatar says it all.

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    Wandering Afield Some More

    Interesting links, mrmeval. We're wandering off the original thread, which was powderless cartridges. I was wondering if someone would come up with azide or peroxide propellants, but Learn2shoot inquired about CO2 rockets, so here we are.

    Anyhow I was interested in using the CO2 "Powerlets" directly as both the motor and the missile casing for a rocket, and although I've never tried it, I've thought about it, which is why I made the remarks about the CO2 cartridge freezing up.

    When I was a kid (1948 or so) I got a model car into which you could insert one of those seltzer-maker cartridges. (These were a lot shorter than today's Powerlets.) The car had two eyelets on the bottom through which a long string could be threaded. You'd tie down the ends of the string and the kit came with a hand-held spring-loaded puncturing device.

    The car would take off and zoom along the string and great fun was had by this old eight-year-old.

    So I was thinking of that for an aerial rocket, did some calcs, then thought about the freezing problem. I guess the thing to do would be to insert the CO2 cartridge in one of those Estes Rockets to avoid having the fins attached directly to the steel of the CO2 cartridge.

    However, Estes has a rule against using any metal in their models.

    TNX for the links. TTFN.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2006
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