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amsec bf 6636

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by jetsfan-24, Feb 27, 2010.

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  1. PH/CIB

    PH/CIB Member

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    Thank you all for this excellent discussion about safes. I just got off the internet reading about fireproof or resistant commercial tile, fire brick, and concrete. Someone should start a safe business, manufacturing a safe made of steel with the door attached and also an interior of steel attached with holes in the top to pump in concrete, you deliver the safe to the customers house, basement installation only and on site fill the interior of the safe between the two steel shells with concrete pumping it in under pressure on site. The concrete would have to be a special formulation so hard to resist all drilling and cutting and the safe after the concrete was pumped in nobody could move it because it was so heavy so if you moved you would have to sell the safe with the house, should help with fireproofing too.

    From what I read about commercial outside fireproof tile probably 1/2 to inch thick, I should buy a tile saw, and tile the outside and inside of my safe. What do you guys think about those ideas, crazy or not?
     
  2. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    No offense A1, but I do believe you're getting out of your area of expertise with this one. Comments about exploding ammo and "safe bombs" aside, I'm not sure where you come up with your ideas about "most" guns being able to fire cleanly through a gun safe. Care to share your source of information?
     
  3. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Really? Do you of all people want to question my expertise again?

    I'm not talking about loose ammo popping off. I'm talking about enough ammo, stored in bulk, all popping off suddenly. Let's look at a common ammo can. Do you know why the ammo can is designed the way it is?

    An ammo can will do two things in a fire. It will contain any projectiles that are cooking off. It will also fail under high pressure to avoid an explosion.

    If pressure builds faster than it can escape, you will have an explosion. It's simple science.

    I'm glad you ask. I've seen it. I have photos of it. More of the real life experience I've talked about in this thread.

    Before I start posting more photos, how about we apply some common sense to these scenarios.

    Most gun safes are 1/8" thick or less sheet steel, with a few layers of gypsum board. Do you not honestly believe that a gun will shoot through that?
     
  4. Guns and more

    Guns and more member

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    "Those darn guns are shooting by themselves again, I hate it when they do that."
     
  5. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Typically only in response to their anger at being burned :D

    Something most people don't think about, but a chambered gun in a gun safe can injure a firefighter. There have been glocks left in ovens that have fired multiple rounds.

    I have photos of a burglary attempt where the bad guy got mad at the gun safe and shot it several times. The bullets went cleanly through the 1/4" door. They also went through the hard plate, through the lock, through the rear door panel, and into the contents of the safe.
     
  6. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    I, of all people, would like to see that photo as well as the bullet itself that penetrated all that steel. If that's not possible, can you share with us the caliber of weapon used? You obviously took exception to my questioning your claim that most guns can fire a bullet through a safe, but you didn't really do much in terms of backing up your claim. Might be a good selling point for the concrete filled AMSEC. :D

    As for ammo boxes/cans, I would love to see where you are coming up with your info on why they are built the way they are in terms of having ammo explode inside them. Yes, I'm questioning your expertise, but that's what Internet forums are for.
     
  7. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I do not know the caliber.

    I know you mentioned "all that steel", but the truth is there isn't much steel in gun safes. There are a lot of people here that shoot at steel targets. They may be able to shed some additional light on the subject, but it is my understanding that 1/2" hardened steel is considered the minimum one should use (if stationary).

    Keep in mind most safe bodies are mild steel, including this safe. So you had 1/4" of mild steel, some gypsum board, a 1/4" of hard steel, the soft metal of the lock body, and the thin rear door cover. That's not much to go through.

    There are a lot of photos on google showing steel plate that has been shot.

    The AMSEC may very well stop a bullet. The solid 1/2" plate front door would stop most hand gun rounds. Don't know how it would be a selling point.

    Well I'm capable of backing up just about everything that I say. But there are many reasons that I don't.

    In some cases, the information that I have could compromise the security of a safe owner. The internet gives bad guys enough information as it is, I don't want to be known as a guy that contributes anything in addition to that.

    I also work hard for my information. To be involved in my business, with my customers, you have to know what you're talking about. You have to have answers. Real answers, not something made up on the fly.

    I know you think you've forgotten more about the safe business that I'll ever know, but the opposite is probably closer to reality. I could lead you to all the answers, without you doing any of the work, and you could parrot that information to all of your customers. They would be impressed with your vast knowledge of the security business, and word would get around that you're really a safe guy.

    Or..... I could not give you this information on a golden platter. If you're interested in knowing, you can do the same thing I had to do. Go out and learn it on your own. Then when you impress people with your knowledge, you can feel the pride of actually being knowledgeable.
     
  8. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    You kill me A1, you really do! LOL

    Not sure how your divulging information about ammo boxes could harm your customers, but whatever. As for guns shooting through steel in a safe as you described, yes, it is possible, but I doubt very seriously a home burglar would be carrying FMJ rounds in a caliber of weapon able to accomplish such penetration. Please don't interpret that as me challenging what you said you saw, but it would be highly unusual as opposed to falling under the category of "most guns" being able to perform such a feat.

    Regarding my comment comparing our respective knowledge of safes, I was speaking of gun safes in particular. I'll gladly tip my hat to you where your technical knowledge is concerned as I am not a locksmith. You just give the impression (to me anyway) that you are opening burned up, gypsum-lined safes on a daily basis. How you can argue that gypsum lined safes are ineffective baffles my mind when AMSEC, for example, provides figures for this type safe vs their BF series. Surely you're not suggesting one set of figures is valid while the other isn't. We're talking about the same manufacturer here.

    As for your condescending tone in your last statement, my skin isn't that thin, and I'll go toe to toe with you on general knowledge of gun safes any time you're ready. Just keep in mind this is an Internet forum where such things shouldn't be taken so personally.
     
  9. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I'm not suggesting that at all. This was covered under the "figure it out on your own" comment.

    If you would like to learn all of this information directly from me, I do have an apprentice program.

    So google the images and see for yourself. There are plenty of photos showing various thicknesses and hardness of steel plates that have been shot with a variety of ammo. If you want to stand behind 1/4" or less plate while somebody is shooting at you you're a braver man than I.

    A handfull a year. Combined with the handfulls that some of my peers deal with, I have a fairly large sample to choose from.

    I don't know why it's so difficult to understand. You pull gypsum lined safes out of fires that have failed. You see that it doesn't work as well as advertised. You then pull other types of safes out of other similar fires and the contents are fine. They do tend to work as advertised.

    Oven testing safes is great, but it doesn't paint the entire picture. UL oven tests at such a high level of abuse, it's a slightly different animal.

    What exactly is considered general knowledge of gun safes? Most common colors? Best interior layout? What locks each manufacturer uses?

    Technical information is what keeps your assets safe. If you don't know that, you don't know what you're selling.
     
  10. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    I'm done with you on this on A1 unless you can come up with something more than I'm seeing here. I can only assume you know something about guns and ammo considering the format of this forum, then again, you do talk about Google quite a bit. Maybe we should talk about guns for a while. I'm a big fan of Belgium Brownings myself, but I've owned a little bit of everything and still have a pretty decent collection of guns... in my gypsum lined gun safe.

    One last question if I may. What is your hat size? :neener:
     
  11. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I've come up with all sorts of things in this thread. You haven't come up with anything aside from what's printed in the sales catalog.

    If you ever want to post any photos that disprove any of my statements, feel free.

    A little. Mostly pistols, and a few EBRs. I have a small Sig collection, and a few other carry weapons.

    When it comes to the subject of firearms, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as others here on the forum. As such, I tend to read those threads without responding. In this field, I can certainly learn more from others than I can share. I only contribute when I know what I'm talking about (mostly safe questions).
     
  12. JCinPA

    JCinPA Member

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    Deleted for inaccuracy.

    Properly corrected by SafeGuy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  13. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    I have to agree that you have provided knowledgeable information. I have been keeping up with this thread and can't believe some of the comments from SafeGuy. It's obvious to me that he has bitten off more than he can chew, and is grasping for straws. It appears that he is conflict hungry and will say anything even if it jeopardizes his integrity. I certainly wouldn't buy a gun safe from him just by what I have seen him post in this thread.
     
  14. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    Uh, might want to re-read A1's post again if you wonder where that came from. Here you go...

     
  15. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    Sorry you feel that way Keizer, but I'm not sure what comments I've made which lead you to your conclusions. I can assure you I haven't bitten off more than I can chew, and I am certainly not grasping at straws.

    As for conflict, I'm not looking for conflict in terms of going toe to toe with a self-proclaimed expert on ballistics, metallurgy, thermal dynamics, and fire testing. I've done nothing more than point out facts while offering my opinion as I thought may be helpful to the OP or anyone else who is comparing gun safes. That is what this thread was about, wasn't it?
     
  16. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    I've already disproved a couple of your statements, but I'm not sure what you think photos prove or disprove about what we've talked about.



    Well said, and I can agree with you on both points. There are most certainly other members of this forum who are more up to date with their knowledge of firearms as I've been out of the business for a long time.

    As for safe questions, I don't claim to know all the answers, and I won't turn to Google to pretend to know more than I do. I'm more than happy to share what I do know, regardless of whether or not someone has any interest in doing business with me. Like you, I just hate to see people get questionable information on something as serious as protecting their valuables.
     
  17. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    I believe it's time to say "Don't feed the trolls!"
     
  18. JCinPA

    JCinPA Member

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    Keizer, I'd buy a safe from SafeGuy. I do think he's out of his depth a little and a1abdj is very much the expert, but I think what I've gleaned from this thread is that . . .

    a) you should realistically evaluate your security and fire protection needs, and

    b) not believe all the marketing hype you read.

    a1abdj helped get me to think realistically about my needs -- I don't need TL-30X6 protection for $8,000 in guns when my house is not likely to be the target of the folks you saw depicted in The Italian Job and when I have a security system. And for fire protection for papers on little monetary value to a thief, a low-security, high-fire-safe Sentry product might be appropriate. We should think about bifurcating our needs.

    I think SafeGuy sells some good gun safe products at reasonable prices (he's posted some pretty good values), he just might be more susceptible to the safe manufacturer's marketing hype than a1abdj. For reasonable gun protection products, I would not hesitate for a minute to buy from him. I don't think he's being disingenuous at all. . . I think he may just be out of his depth a little bit on the technical aspects of this stuff. He's a good guy trying to deliver good values to his customers.

    That said, I think he'd be better off if he didn't get his knickers in a twist over every post by a1abdj, who really does appear to know his stuff, has not axe to grind, and who pretty much Pw0n's SafeGuy in these technical discussions. With class, I might add.

    And I think the Amsec BF series of gun safes is a tremendous value in terms of not-overhyped RSC security and fire insulation for the money . . . maybe one of the best values for the dollar in terms of actual protection and interior volume out there.

    Later Edit: I think they are both well-meaning gentlemen with the right motivation, but in very different businesses. That's all. Given a1abdj's business, and the proportion he garners from gun safe sales, I'd be more inclined to take his expert advice. But I will not call into question SafeGuy's motives. I think that's unfair. If I want a great, very economical deal in a gun safe for relatively low dollar value being protected which does not require UL data protection standards, I would happily go to SafeGuy. For real security and fire protection needs, I'd be more inclined to listen to a1abdj. I think aqabdj does not 'oversell' and SafeGuy may buy the manufacturer's claims a bit too uncritically . . . but don't bash. They're both doing a good job for their clients as long as the client sensibly understands his/her true needs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2010
  19. JCinPA

    JCinPA Member

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    SafeGuy, I stand corrected on the burglar shooting the safe. I must have missed that post. I was struck by never having thought about a round cooking off chambered in my .45 inside the safe, and that got my attention.

    My apologies for missing that particular post. Deleted my erroneous post. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
     
  20. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Exactly my point. He calls out a1abdj on everything he posts, and it's annoying. It a sure sign of insecurity, and it's childish. It speaks volumes about his personality.
     
  21. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    No apology necessary, but thanks for the thought.

    Look, I said it before, I'll say it again. This site was recommended to me by a previous customer, so I checked it out. It was never my intention to get into any sort of competition with A1 or anybody else, but I call things as I see them. As for me calling him out on everything he posts, that is hardly the case. I've agreed with many of the things he's posted, and I certainly think we both are well aware of the marketing gimmicks used by manufacturers to make their product appear superior to that of their competitors.

    One only needs to take the time to read the info on my website about choosing the right safe which was written some 20 years ago. You will see that I am not a parrot for these manufacturers, and I take the time to take apart safes I take on as to know exactly what these guys are doing. I did that with the first Liberty safe ever sent to me as they wanted me to handle their products. Once I did that, it was easy to see why their product was a little less money than a "comparable" Fort Knox. With that, I passed on carrying their line. Their locking system looked like something that was made from spare parts and beer cans. Hopefully they've improved since then.

    I vividly remember a conversation I had with Pro-Steel's national sales manager, who I had known for years, about his concern that I wasn't presenting their safes as superior to other brands I carry. He also didn't like the fact that I was telling people that any safe could be broken into, and that gun safes were not suitable for storage of paper and photographs. Needless to say, he wasn't happy with the answers I gave him, but they were truthful answers.

    The Fort Knox folks got mad at me because I questioned how adding one layer of fireboard to their safe door could result in such a claimed increase in fire protection. I also asked why they wouldn't test their safes at Omega Point as AMSEC, Browning, and Liberty did at the time. To their credit, they were able to set my mind at ease on all points.

    Bottom line is, I don't have to mislead customers in order to make a sale, and I don't have to push or pull people into a particular brand because it's all I have to offer. I carry more than one brand for that very reason. Cannon is the best bang for the buck (after AMSEC gave up that title 10 years ago), Champion is a step up and offers a wider range of safes than Cannon, and Fort Knox owns the high end market with thicker steel and higher fire ratings than the others though their entry level safes are sorely lacking in all areas including price.

    Sorry for the long winded post, but I would suggest that we just stick with answering questions raised on this forum as opposed to making it personal. If I disagree with something that is said, that's just the way it's going to be unless I'm run off. That being said, it would seem to me that grown men can express their differences in opinion without getting childish.
     
  22. pjripple

    pjripple Member

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    Hi all: I almost hate to bring this thread back to life, but here it goes anyway. I began searching for a gun safe earlier this year, and was pretty much interested in the Amsec BF6636 (hence I'm posting here rather than starting a new thread). Anyway, I ended up getting frustrated with my lack of local options and my inability to decide on what safe to get, so I put my search on hold. I recently stumbled across a local retailer who has a few scratch and dent Summit Everest "safes" priced slightly above what I expected to pay for a BF6636. They have only minor cosmetic damage, and some of them you have to really look for the damage. Is it worth the extra money (~$500)? Also, this dealer had an AMSEC with the inside door panel removed and pointed out that the AMSEC locking mechanism is not up to par with the standards of other manufacturers. Any truth to this? This dealer told me that Summit is actually made by two different companies, either Heritage or Prosteel. This particular safe was made by Heritage. I really like the fact that Summit uses 1/4" body vs. AMSEC's 10 or 11 ga, but that's based on my limited knowledge. I guess I'm right back to sorting through comparing apples to oranges, but I'm committed to making a decision that I can live with for a long time. :banghead: Thanks in advance for you input.
     
  23. SafeGuy

    SafeGuy Member

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    Looks like another Utah based spin-off. As to the Summit being made by either Pro-Steel or Heritage, not a chance. Judging by their website, I'm... just going to post this link and let you decide.

    http://www.summitsafes.com/index-1.html
     
  24. pjripple

    pjripple Member

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    Hi Safeguy,

    I'm not sure what you mean by a Utah based spin off? I looked at site you posted as well as looking up Heritage...it appears that Heritage is based in Idaho, and Summit in Utah. So obviously they're not the same company. I guess I'm glad I checked in here first. I don't know why they would have told me that... thanks for the input.
     
  25. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    According to their website, they use more steel. This could easily increase the cost. If they are using a cast insulation, this would also raise the price, as the construction process is a bit more entailed than your typical gun safe.

    With all of this said, I have never seen one of their safes (and I have seen a lot of safes). They must not be selling many, at least around here. Also, as much as I like to root for the small guy, there's also something to be said for buying from a company that's been around over 60 years, and is one of the largest in the business. At least you know they are likely to be around a few years down the road when you have a warrranty issue.

    I guess it depends on what he's talking about. Does this person sell safes, or does this person sell gun safes only? I've found that most gun safe salespersons know very little about safes, and either repeat what they have heard, or simply make things up as they go along. A good question to ask is "If I have a warranty issue, who comes out to fix it". Would you want to buy a product from a company that doesn't (or better yet can't) support what they sell?

    If the salesperson mentions stuff like anti punch boltwork, ask him for photographic evidence of the last gun safe he saw that suffered a punch attack. Regardless of how much like a "real safe" gun safe manufacturers build their safes to be, they simply don't face the same threat. In other words, you're paying for features that will likely not add to your security. There is a difference between good design and poor design though, so I am curious as to what his exact comparison was.

    More steel is rarely a bad thing. The question is, do you need it, or do you need even more? There are gun safes with 1/2" and 1" plate bodies as well. They are far more secure than the AMSEC BF. AMSEC also makes two safes with UL burglary ratings, that are the most secure, mass produced gun safe on the market.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2010
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