An argument for .40 caliber

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"Don't really think the .44 Special that Elmer and the boys liked was that load."

Of course it isn't, but it's the same weight bullet as the load mentioned and 10 fps faster.

I'm shooting tin cans and paper with a 30-year-old SAA I just bought. The cheap imported ammo I can find happens to be JHP. Amd 50 rounds of PMC Bronze for $21 at the gun show looks like a deal compared to everything else.
 
Just carry a .45. All the big boys are doing it! I dont see a problem with the .40, if you can fire the weapon well and practice with it regularly it will do just fine. Not like any of the rounds discussed are going to bounce off gents.
 
"Don't really think the .44 Special that Elmer and the boys liked was that load."

Of course it isn't, but it's the same weight bullet as the load mentioned and 10 fps faster.

I'm shooting tin cans and paper with a 30-year-old SAA I just bought. The cheap imported ammo I can find happens to be JHP. Amd 50 rounds of PMC Bronze for $21 at the gun show looks like a deal compared to everything else."

Is that the best deal out there right now for .44 Special?
What was your best buy for .44 Special ammunition?
:what: I just saw that was for FIFTY rounds? :what: I hope you bought a lot of it. I was thinking at 20 rounds that was good for this market.

Sounds like fun. Congrats on the SAA.
 
JohnBT wrote,
"the original solution was the 10MM. However it proved too much to handle for everyone in the FBI. The caliber was downloaded to 180 grains at around 970 fps."

They almost re-invented the .44 Special?

I bought some inexpensive PMC Bronze JHP to shoot in my new 30-year-old SAA. They're 180 grains at 980 fps.

Actually, the .40S&W is more like the "police load" Elmer Keith envisioned for the .41 Magnum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Remington_Magnum
 
The 10MM is closer. It's capable of heavier bullet loads, at 900 fps. Doubletap is loading a 230 grains cast bullet @ 1120 fps.

They also get around 1200 fps with a 200 grain HP.

I wonder if the 10MM can run a 250-260 grain LFN type bullet at 950 fps?
That would equal the old .45 Colt load.
 
Kind of too bad the .41 is a .41, and not a .40.
That's one of the arguments for the .45 Colt/45 ACP/Super/Rowland/Detonics combination.
 
"Is that the best deal out there right now for .44 Special?"

Yes, as far as I can tell. I bought 180 gr. PMC Bronze at the gun show for $21 from one dealer and $23 from another. The new indoor range has it for $25 which is still cheap compared to everything I've seen. I'll be shopping for reloading equipment, especially if I retire in September. :)

Using ammoseek.com http://ammoseek.com/?gun=handgun&cal=37 I see that PMC is back in stock at a number of places.

US Armorment is $390 per 1k. The next four on the list range from $20.19 to $23.05 a box. I didn't check shipping costs.
 
Kind of too bad the .41 is a .41, and not a .40.

There is nothing kinda bad about it, the .41 is a great cartridge. What is "kinda bad" is folks ignorance towards the .41 mag:rolleyes: Elmer Keith, and Bill Jordan both lobbied for a police cartridge that would produce around 1000fps with 200gr bullet. However the marketing brains at Rem decided to kick it up a notch to around 1100fps with a 210gr swaged LSWC. These cartridges had their own problems which can be read about here http://www.leverguns.com/articles/41keith.htm

Then add to the fact that those agencies that did issue the M58 issued the full blown hunting cartridge and it's no surprise why it didn't catch on with more LEO agencies.

The .400" revolver cartridge is nothing new. Before the .41 mag there was a .40" magnum revolver cartridge, it was the .401 Herter's PowerMag which hit the scene in 1961. Two things pretty much put the .401 Powermag below ground, the release of the .41 mag and the gun control act of 1968.
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell401PowerMag.htm

As for the whole Miami "FBI" shootout that is their own fault for trying to take on felons armed with a semi auto rifle. This factoid would rear it's ugly head again with the horrible bank robbery that happened in California. A handgun is always a poor choice in a gunfight were rifles are present no if's and's or but's about it.
 
As for the whole Miami "FBI" shootout that is their own fault for trying to take on felons armed with a semi auto rifle.
Can we cut the FBI a little slack on this one?
What would you have had them do - just let Matix and Platt go since they didn't have rifles on hand? They had already killed or attempted to kill numerous people, so was the FBI supposed to let them go on their way to their target and possibly kill more people?

I may not agree with all the conclusions reached in the aftermath, and tactics / FBI policy can be debated & tweaked, but if it had been you or a loved one doing business at M&P's next target, you'd no doubt be the first one wagging a finger at the agents wondering why they didn't try to stop them (as they did)!

I have a hard time faulting the agents as easily as some seem to be able.
 
I have a hard time faulting the agents as easily as some seem to be able.

I think many folks, myself included, don't "fault" them. However, the outcome was not suprising and I have a "what did they expect would happen" opinion. Many have a beef that 9mm was used as the scapegoat and all the subsequent review, testing and retooling of agents at taxpayer's expense. It was a great move for Glock though.

Here's more food for thought on caliber x vs. caliber y:
surface_area%2520%2528Medium%2529.png
 
I was just pointing out a selling point for both the .41 and .40's would be if you could use the same bullets for 3 calibers, 10, .40, and .41.
Same as .45 ACP/Super/Detonics/Rowland and .45 Colt/.454/.460.

Coalman:
That chart does a reasonable job of explaining why what seems like a non-consequential increase in diameter is actually a geometric increase, leading to in real life,
a substantial difference in results.

Another point that should be brought into play is the geometric increase in case capacity, as the diameter is increased. It has some pretty amazing results.
For an extreme example:
I was looking for a minimum plinking load for a .475 Linebaugh. The SLOWEST AA 9 load, with minimum pressure, averages 1560 fps out of my 7.5" FA 83, shooting a
275 grain bullet. 325's with similar minimum loads go 1450 fps.

The .40 does seem to take advantage of that added case capacity.
Wonder if you might add that to your chart, with a common bullet weight, say about 147 grains?
 
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With all service pistol chamberings . . . . there are loads that perform well in self defense situations, and their performance is similiar. So, on a practical level it doesnt make much difference.

I own pistols in .45ACP, .40, and 9mm. (To be able to shoot whatever pistol ammo is available under the circumstances.) I spend a lot of time up in the mountain backcountry and my favorite pistol set up for this is the 10mm in a Glock.

Ive recommended 9mm to relatives just getting into shooting. Mainly because of costs and modest recoil.
 
That chart does a reasonable job of explaining why what seems like a non-consequential increase in diameter is actually a geometric increase, leading to in real life,
a substantial difference in results.

But one has to ask - what does the increase in caliber provide you with? I've mentioned it before, but just because the bullet is 30% bigger (or whatever it happens do be) it doesn't mean you're 30% more likely to stop the target or that it will stop the target 30% faster.

On a direct hit to the heart or brain, will it matter that you hit with a bigger bullet? On a hit that severs a major artery, will it cause the target to bleed out "fast enough" to stop the attack (and if it will, would the smaller wound tract fail to bleed out in time)? On a hit that nicks an artery or organ, would the larger bullet be "enough" to damage the organ to the point of failure?

Charts are great, but without any application, we can't truly get the information from them. The application here is how the different size affects your ability to stop the attack.
 
I might as well throw in my 2cents.

40 is a good caliber and I've owned both 9mm and 40 pistols even in the same exact gun - M&P9 and M&P40.

But really a good 9mm ammo will do the job and provide you with a few additional rounds. Those extra 2 or 3 rounds might save your life. Shot placement is key.

And if I wanted a larger caliber from 9mm, I'd just go straight to 45ACP and skip 40 altogether. but thats just me.
 
I should add, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm constantly learning new things, and recent readings have suggested that 9mm and .45 are relatively similar in what they do, because despite the huge size difference between them, they both only hit a very small area and that small area is what they destroy.

If there is a good chance that a .45 will do something that the 9 won't on a similar hit, then there might be a reason for me to consider it over the 9. As it is, I'm leaning towards a 9. Luckily, I don't have the funding for a new gun right now (currently carry a .40, but want to go one way or the other), so I have some time before I need to decide.
 
to keep it short and sweet, i have a 9mm, a .40 cal and several .45's
i have found the 9mm may take several rounds to stop someone but it will get the job done. with the .40 it's close to the .45.
but for me i choose the .45 over the 9 and 40 for defence.
9 times out of 10 one hit from the .45 stops the suspect cold
 
I should add, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm constantly learning new things, and recent readings have suggested that 9mm and .45 are relatively similar in what they do, because despite the huge size difference between them, they both only hit a very small area and that small area is what they destroy.

If there is a good chance that a .45 will do something that the 9 won't on a similar hit, then there might be a reason for me to consider it over the 9. As it is, I'm leaning towards a 9. Luckily, I don't have the funding for a new gun right now (currently carry a .40, but want to go one way or the other), so I have some time before I need to decide.

Actually, for me, comparing modern HPs, greater mass offers better aggregate external/internal barrier defeating and resistance to deflection. These are significant benefits for me of the 230gr .45acp HP. The far greater surface area is a bonus and the added aggregate penetration key, the former relating to starting diameter and the latter mass. Basically, I consider getting to that critical internal target a lot. Since I shoot 9mm and .45acp comparably in guns I own, if I assumed a clear shot on an open COM, or that I'll have multiple attempts on target, or innumerable targets, I may be more apt to dismiss .45acp as many 9mm fans seem to. I don't though, so I don't.

Charts are great, but without any application, we can't truly get the information from them. The application here is how the different size affects your ability to stop the attack.

You can never know the application or effect in this debate before the fact. You can make personal assumptions and choose accordingly. And, that's what most do.
 
All I'll say is this...

I like the 40 much better than the 9mm...but prefer the 45 over either of them. Mostly because it is a low pressure round, excellent brass life, doesn't beat the pistol up, not quite as hard on the ears, etc...
 
You can never know the application or effect in this debate before the fact.

You can know the application, it's just hard to say which is better. The application we're looking at is stopping the attack, and that means either causing damage to CNS or reducing the level of oxygen in the brain either by dropping blood pressure (by bleeding the target or by damaging the heart) or by damaging the respiratory system.

Which means the (currently unanswerable) question is this - what are the chances that a 9mm would not damage enough vital tissue in the respiratory, circulatory, or nervous systems to stop the target, but a .45 would? That is the question that needs to be asked in order for any type of study to be done to determine the difference in effectiveness. Unfortunately, it's a tough question to answer.
 
You can know the application, it's just hard to say which is better. The application we're looking at is stopping the attack, and that means either causing damage to CNS or reducing the level of oxygen in the brain either by dropping blood pressure (by bleeding the target or by damaging the heart) or by damaging the respiratory system.

Which means the (currently unanswerable) question is this - what are the chances that a 9mm would not damage enough vital tissue in the respiratory, circulatory, or nervous systems to stop the target, but a .45 would? That is the question that needs to be asked in order for any type of study to be done to determine the difference in effectiveness. Unfortunately, it's a tough question to answer.

Actually, IMO, no you can't. You make assumptions.

Part of the "application" question, aside from proficiency, is also getting to that "critical" spot. Even given identical placement, objects may block that path. So, that's part of the "application" as well.

Example: LE have a much higher probability of shooting through auto class. That "application" is a critical part of their evaluation. For non-LE not as much.

I find much banter about this assumes, by the nature of the arguement made, a clear, frontal, open COM shot absent internal/external barriers. I don't assume this.

In modern HP, the heavier object defeats barriers better on aggregate and retains more momentum to be more effective after. IMO, that should at least be considered in the "application" as well. Maybe it's important to you, maybe not. But, you'll only know if it matters after the fact. Same with capacity. And, it's the same with the many other assumptions we make in the fantasy encounters we dream up to validate and/or direct our selection(s).
 
You are right that you have to make assumptions, but still, the question remains - when will a .45 stop a target that a 9 wouldn't have? It is these cases that make the .45 more attractive than the 9.
 
the fact of the matter to me is, most attacks are face to face, so when would you have to shoot threw a automobile glass or any other object?
the 9mm is fast. and like i said may take several rounds to stop the attack.
with a .40 or .45 the attack is stopped right now. they are made for knockdown power.
 
the 9mm is fast. and like i said may take several rounds to stop the attack.
with a .40 or .45 the attack is stopped right now. they are made for knockdown power.

Do you have proof of this? Because its been argued for decades. Right now, the general consensus is that all handgun rounds suck. The .40 and .45 just suck slightly less.
 
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