Analyzing the Parker verdict

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ctdonath

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Going thru the Parker verdict, there is much to discuss, and some points that will cause issues later.

While much is laudable and interesting, this prompted me to start this thread:
We take these to be the sort of reasonable regulations contemplated by the drafters of the Second Amendment. For instance, it is presumably reasonable “to prohibit the carrying of weapons when under the influence of intoxicating drink, or to a church, polling place, or public assembly, or in a manner calculated to inspire terror . . . .”
Being in GA, the "no carry in alcohol-serving restaurants, churches, or public gatherings" is a serious problem for defensive carry ... and this court, albeit dicta, approves of such restrictions.

Any other gems/landmines people are finding?
 
With regard to the "presumably reasonable" restrictions, is it possible that the opinion states it as such because such restrictions do exist, and can therefore be assumed to be reasonable? That is, there are standing laws in various locales that correspond to the restrictions stated in the opinion, so...one might assume that somebody felt such restrictions were reasonable if such law was proposed and subsequently accepted.
 
I don't see any landmines to be honest. The decision gives examples of restrictions that are presumably reasonable using history and past Supreme Court decisions.

Here is the thing though: we are in the same position with or without that decision. Any of those restrictions can be enacted as soon as gun owners are weak enough politically. The difference is that if this decision is adopted, we have some lower limit on what those restrictions are. They can't be silly stuff like AWBs, handgun bans, etc.

We're no worse off than we are now on many restrictions and much better off on those that are invalidated.
 
Wasn't the San Francisco handgun ban thrown out for roughly the same reason? The court, as I understood it, said that a locality couldn't place a ban, because they conflicted with state laws. That could be taken to mean state laws fall under the "reasonable" cloak, while the local law was not. While I don't think the CA court addressed the 2nd, there has to be some basis under which the SF ban was beyond "reasonable."

I would love the DC decision to provide a new precedent, but I'm not sure it does.
 
Amusing as such language is ahistorical. Many colonies required males members to bring their guns to church.;) Indeed, if they want to invoke history then the fig leaf of "reasonable restrictions" will fail them. Public meetings, polling places were all stricken down at one point in the common law.

"Riding to the terror of the King's subjects" was based on the Statute of Winchester in 1285. If they really want to have that fight, then bring them on.

Malone, that decision was based on preemption, not the rkba.
 
More gems and landmines:

the court below granted the District’s motion to dismiss on the grounds that the Second Amendment, at most, protects an individual’s right to “bear arms for service in the Militia.” (The court did not refer to the word “keep” in the Second Amendment.)
Interesting how "collective rights" types utterly fail to explain how one is supposed to have arms to bear in militia use if they are not allowed to keep them. If the gov't keeps them, owns them, sets rules for their use, and otherwise limits who can have them & when, the result is indistinguishable from a standing army.

In any event, Heller has invoked his rights under the Second Amendment to challenge the statutory classifications used to bar his ownership of a handgun under D.C. law, and the formal process of application and denial, however routine, makes the injury to Heller’s alleged constitutional interest concrete and particular. He is not asserting that his injury is only a threatened prosecution, nor is he claiming only a general right to handgun ownership; he is asserting a right to a registration certificate, the denial of which is his distinct injury.
The case was saved by Heller applying for a permit he couldn't get. With that explicit denial, the harm of carrying on without it became unavoidably clear.

In short, we take the District’s position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter.
Reducto ad absurdum: taken to its logical conclusion, the collectivist view results in part of the Bill Of Rights simply evaporating - which indicates the absurdity of the premise.

Such outlandish views are likely advanced because the plain meaning of “keep” strikes a mortal blow to the collective right theory.
The more people try to explain away a right they don't like, the more absurd their reasoning becomes.

But since “the people” and “keep” have obvious individual and private meanings, we think those words resolve any supposed ambiguity in the term “bear arms.”
The plain wording reinforces itself.

If the right to keep and bear arms offered no protection to individuals, the Court would not likely pick as a noteworthy exception to the right a prohibition on concealed weapons.
The use of examples indicates one's underlying axioms.

The term “Arms” was quite indefinite, but it would have been peculiar, to say the least, if it were designed to ensure that people had an individual right to keep weapons capable of mass destruction—e.g., cannons.
Some Founding Fathers did have cannons. The only issue with individual ownership of heavy weapons is that they are, well, heavy - on a scale that may confound personal ownership only for physical practicality and cost, not for legal reasons. This, and the example of acceptable restrictions given earlier, are points that bother me and will probably come back to haunt us.

I suppose in fifty-some pages of precision, errors may occur. On the whole, the verdict is great and the justification sound.

May SCOTUS agree soon.
 
Wasn't the San Francisco handgun ban thrown out for roughly the same reason?

NO!!! It was thrown out because CA state law says (roughly) that municipalities may not make restrictions on firearms that are stricter than what the state law is. California has state-preemption. Without preemption, it means that every municipality everywhere could make up whatever crazy laws it wants to. "You can't own mags that hold more than 9 rounds" or "no rifles in 223 are allowed" or whatever. Most states have preemption so that municipalities can't enact regs like that, otherwise it would be mind-bogglingly complex to just drive around the state with a gun. You would have to know that such-and-such little town of 400 people has some law that says, "you can't carry a gun on Sunday".

So that's why the SF ban was thrown out. It violated a state preemption law.
 
has Wash DC been Parkerized?
No. It has been Hellerated.

Overlooked in all this is Parker per se lost on lack of standing. It was only co-plaintiff Heller who was addressed and vindicated in this ruling.
 
Some of (if not many of) the quotes in post #7 are not the ruling of the case, but actually opinions and comments on the Districts stance in the case. Most of them were shot down by the decision of the court. At least, that's how I read it.


Here’s what I found:

Page 44

The term “Arms” was quite indefinite, but it
would have been peculiar, to say the least, if it were designed to
ensure that people had an individual right to keep weapons
capable of mass destruction—e.g., cannons
. Thus the Miller
Court limited the term “Arms”—interpreting it in a manner
consistent with the Amendment’s underlying civic purpose.
Only “Arms” whose “use or possession . . . has some reasonable
relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia,” id. at 177, would qualify for protection.
I think they fell short on this one. I could maybe understand the WOMD reasoning if the colonists hadn’t had cannon. Furthermore, the court even recognizes that the “military use” is not a requirement to “keep and bear”.

To suggest that they had no such right doesn’t make sense. It also doesn’t explain the “shall not be infringed” part. So far, all they seem to do with that is essentially say that it’s okay to infringe upon the right, but that doing so isn’t an infringement.

Would this argument also allow the outright ban of M-16s or short barreled shotguns if they are considered a destructive device. I’m not sure I believe that it “would have been peculiar,… , if it were designed to endsure that people had an individual right to keep … cannons.”.

Page 54-55
Reasonable restrictions also might be thought consistent
with a “well regulated Militia.” The registration of firearms
gives the government information as to how many people would
be armed for militia service if called up. Reasonable firearm
proficiency testing would both promote public safety and
produce better candidates for military service. Personal
characteristics, such as insanity or felonious conduct, that make
gun ownership dangerous to society also make someone
unsuitable for service in the militia. Cf. D.C. Code § 49-401
(excluding “idiots, lunatics, common drunkards, vagabonds,
paupers, and persons convicted of any infamous crime” from
militia duty). On the other hand, it does not follow that a person
who is unsuitable for militia service has no right to keep and
bear arms. A physically disabled person, for instance, might not be able to participate in even the most rudimentary organized
militia. But this person would still have the right to keep and
bear arms, just as men over the age of forty-five and women
would have that right, even though our nation has traditionally
excluded them from membership in the militia. As we have explained, the right is broader than its civic purpose. See
Volokh, supra, at 801-07.17
Sounds like they go a long stretch to say that gun registration is Constitutional because it’s necessary to know who is available for the Selective Service. And, with their “idiots, and lunatics” reference it sounds like the door is being left open for mental testing for anyone who would hunt yotes with an AR.


They also take the "reasonable restrictions" view somewhat from the case Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275 (1897), which is quoted as
the
right of the people to keep and bear arms (article 2) is
not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of
concealed weapons;
Problem is that these "reasonable restrictions" do nothing to reasonably keep us safe, while they most certainly are an infringement. This court does comment on that finding by
in the Supreme
Court’s thin Second Amendment jurisprudence
Yet it seems they turn around and support the "reasonable restrictions" argument.


These are the ones that I’ve noticed so far, but I’d agree with BR that most of what the court has done is make such claims based on precedent.
 
Here is one of the points I think a lot of people have missed.

On page 38, Section B:
On one occasion, we anticipated an argument about the scope of the Second Amendment, but because the issue had not been properly raised by the appellants, we assumed the applicability of the collective rights interpretation then urged by the federal government. (Discussing whether there was past circuit precedent controlling this opinion - emphasis mine)

On page 17:
And the United States Department of Justice has recently adopted the individual rights model

Emerson also noted Ashcroft's brief and memo on the subject in their individual rights decision. I think a lot of people are missing how influential a change like that can be. Part of me thinks we might be looking at much more muted results if we had not had the federal government (and 14 state governments) lining up to support an individual rights model.
 
If the supreme court accepts the 2nd amendment as protecting and individual right, would it not require strict scrutiny on any restriction? If so, then I would take the off-hand comments about potential restrictions as meant to calm those worriedly contemplating a right to own assault rifles.

The logic of the case seems to me to clearly point to the word "Arms" in the 2nd amendment encompassing at least anything that a soldier might routinely carry, and I highly doubt the Supreme Court would stick closely to the wording of the amendment if it they thought it meant prohibiting all restrictions on those sorts of arms. So I welcome talk of "reasonable regulations". If we want, we can quarrel with that after an individual right is recognized.

In any case, I don't think it is possible to emerge from this worse off than before. As of now (excepting the current hope), we might as well not have a 2nd amendment.
 
poor_richard said:
Sounds like they go a long stretch to say that gun registration is Constitutional because it’s necessary to know who is available for the Selective Service. And, with their “idiots, and lunatics” reference it sounds like the door is being left open for mental testing for anyone who would hunt yotes with an AR.
I think idiot in this context refers to an archaic term for the seriously mentally handicapped. Lunatic would surely mean the totally insane too. As such, it doesn't really open the door, per se, as the law already prohibits those who have been adjudicated mentally defective. Thought I suppose they could try to widen the net if then run out of other ways to infringe...
 
A key point indicated in the registration of gunowners is that the registration is for a positive purpose of the government being able to rely on citizens, as contrasted with the negative purpose of suppressing ownership and viewing armed citizens as suspicious (the usual intent of "we gotta know who has these terrible weapons" comment). It's the difference between "CTD, we know you have sniper rifles & training, can you urgently take out this attacker" vs. "police, CTD has sniper rifles & training, so be careful if you go to his house".

Methinks the reference to WMDs was a move to cut off the inevitable red herring. Discussions about the limitless definition of "arms" and the right thereto almost invariably jumps to the ignorant "but do you want your neighbor to have a nuke?" question. The court drew a blurry line in an attempt to stay on focus, that being common citizens with common weapons.
 
We take these to be the sort of reasonable regulations contemplated by the drafters of the Second Amendment. For instance, it is presumably reasonable “to prohibit the carrying of weapons when under the influence of intoxicating drink, or to a church, polling place, or public assembly, or in a manner calculated to inspire terror . . . .”

I agree that it's no business of the gummit if I carry in church or to a polling place or public assembly, so long as I keep it concealed. Also, prohibiting the carrying of firearms when under the influence of intoxicating drink is, IMHO, quite reasonable, and not the same as prohibiting carry in bars or restaurants where liquor is served. We don't prohibit drivers from going into such establishments, but we do prohibit them driving if they become intoxicated.

Having said that, no court will ever rule that the 2nd Amendment is an absolute right even though the language ("shall not be infringed") is some of the strongest in the Bill of Rights. How can we argue that? If it were absolute, we wouldn't be able to prevent a condemned murderer on death row from keeping and bearing arms. Still, "reasonable" restrictions will evolve, eventually, our way when the predictions of blood running in the streets all prove unfounded.

The WMD question is a troubling one. While the Founding Fathers didn't have modern assault rifles, the "assault rifle" of the late 18th Century was the Brown Bess Musket. It's advantages were exactly what the military advantages of the modern assault rifle are about -- quickness of loading and adequate short-range accuracy. And yes, individuals and companies (shipowners and fur trading companies, for example) owned cannon -- the WMD of the late 18th Century. However, modern nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons represent an entirely new class of weaponry that is totally beyond the scope of anything conceived of in the 18th Century. IMHO, restricting the R2K&BA to individual weapons rather than crew-served weapons is reasonable, if not strictly within the spirit of the 2nd Amendment. Especially if provisions are made to allow crew-served weapons to be kept by individuals under similar provisions to what we now have restricting full-auto weapons. YMMV

In any event, let's keep our fingers crossed. The worst possible outcome would be for the Supremes to overturn the circuit court and buy DC's collectivist arguments. I'm more concerned that the full circuit will overturn the decision, giving the Supremes the excuse to ignore the issue once again.
 
For instance, it is presumably reasonable “to prohibit the carrying of weapons when under the influence of intoxicating drink, or to a church, polling place, or public assembly, or in a manner calculated to inspire terror . . . .”
I would really like to see someone explain, under oath, why it is “reasonable” to equate drunkenness & church attendance as public dangers.
And just how is voting equivalent to “inspiring terror”?
These examples just serve to illustrate how bizarre the definition of “reasonable” can be.
 
The current Virginia status on carrying in places of religious worshop. It doesn't prohibit carrying if you have a "good and sufficient reason". I always wondered if you thought that, say non-Christian people could attack your church like they have in other parts of the world, would be "good and sufficient reason" to protect ones self while at worship. Well, after all, an Indian attack or possible slave rebellion was good enough to carry a weapon to church in colonial times.:confused:

" § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. "
 
I asked these questions in the big thread but got no response. Anyone?



If SCOTUS takes the case and upholds it, does that mean that only Parker's issue will be affected?

That is the law he appealed will be overturned but nothing else will be touched?

Which would mean that every particular anti-gun law would have to be challenged on an individual basis?

Is there any chance of SCOTUS saying ALL gun laws are UC and therefore void?

If it must be done on a per law basis it seems unfair as they could overturn all RKBA (as some have said in this thread) with one decision but they won't uphold all RKBA with one decision.
 
If SCOTUS takes the case and upholds it, does that mean that only Parker's issue will be affected?
No. It will overturn every decision in which a lower court has held that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to individuals.

Which would mean that every particular anti-gun law would have to be challenged on an individual basis?
Not necessarily. Many will be withdrawn by legislatures as unconstitutional. Others will remain on the books but be unenforceable.

Is there any chance of SCOTUS saying ALL gun laws are UC and therefore void?
Dream on! In the first place, not all gun laws are unconstitutional, even with the most favorable interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. I can't see the court dealing with gun laws like they did with discrimination laws, even though they should.
 
The practical effect of Parker, for DC residents, is virtually nil, so I think we have to wait on what the Cato Institute's next move is. I hope it's as good as their last one.

BTW - before anyone goes ballistic, what I mean is this: unless you have a handgun in DC already, you can't legally buy one, right? So you can have something in your home which you can't buy!


BB62
 
Having said that, no court will ever rule that the 2nd Amendment is an absolute right even though the language ("shall not be infringed") is some of the strongest in the Bill of Rights. How can we argue that? If it were absolute, we wouldn't be able to prevent a condemned murderer on death row from keeping and bearing arms. Still, "reasonable" restrictions will evolve, eventually, our way when the predictions of blood running in the streets all prove unfounded.

I would find a better way to make that point. A convicted murderer (under detention) does not have the rights of a free and sane man of suitable age, to which the Constitution surely refers.
 
The only way to properly infringe on "shall not be infringed":
The RKBA exists primarily to suspend the RKBA of another who abuses that right to violate another's rights (did that make sense?).

Persons A and B both have the RKBA. If A threatens (deliberately or not) B with a weapon, B can use his own weapon to relieve A of his. So long as A unduly threatens B in a violent manner, or is understood to have intent to do so, B may use his RKBA to relieve A of his. Ergo, violent felons (particularly those incarcerated) may be disarmed on the premise that they have already demonstrated an intolerable propensity to be violent, those adjudicated insane/incompetent may be disarmed because of a proven inability to discern and refrain from harmful acts, and children may be disarmed as they do not understand the issues and consequences - all amount to the rest of us using our RKBA to, just as when faced with active assault, disarm those who predictably would do us harm.

It is not so much a matter of restrictions, but is a matter of one's rights conflicting with another's rights. All have a right to keep and bear arms ... but if you point a gun at me, I have the right to take it from you (forcefully, if need be).
 
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