Anatomy of a knock-out

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Preacherman, May 24, 2007.

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  1. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    I wasn't sure where to post this, but since in S&T we consider how to avoid problems, it seems to me that a discussion of what happens when a blow knocks someone unconscious is appropriate here. We need to develop strategies and tactics to avoid it!

    There's a very interesting video animation of a knock-out blow here. Worth viewing - and a reminder of why we need to protect our heads!
     
  2. saltydog452

    saltydog452 Member

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    Thank you.

    salty.
     
  3. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    The 21ft rule (keep your enemy at least 21 feet away).

    Don't get hit in the head.

    You may think I'm joking by the above comments, I'm not. I saw someone turned into a parapalegic by two solid hits to the lower spine/kidney area by an enraged but otherwise average sized guy.
     
  4. Alex45ACP

    Alex45ACP Member

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    Building up the muscles in your neck thru exercise will help in avoiding being knocked unconscious.
     
  5. S.P.E.C.T.R.E.

    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Member

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    Gun in one hand, other hand ready for close-in defense. Even if you shoot at 21 feet, and destroy the heart, they'll have enough blood to remain conscious for enough time to land at least one blow. Keep them off of you, and keep firing.
     
  6. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    I'm interested to see what the actual physiology is too..I was almost knocked out by a girl in middle school (she was HUGE, ok??) and all I remember was that my vision went black and white for maybe 2-3 seconds as I fell.

    Wasn't out cold, but def. woozy. I've wondered since what exactly goes on in the brain to make a knockout happen.
     
  7. 03Shadowbob

    03Shadowbob Member

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    1) don't get in a fight
    2) If you get in a fight, try not to get hit in the jaw or temple.
    3) If you get hit in jaw or temple hard enough, good night sweetheart!
    4) If you do not feel confident in your abilities to either take a punch or defend against one, take the fight in close and fight very dirty.
    5) There's no such thing as a clean fight.
     
  8. Geno

    Geno Member

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    Severe concussion; knock-out; closed-head injury or TBI (traumatic brain injury). All of these are synonymous. Regarding the video that they show at the link, and the type impact that they show is known as a coup-contra-coup injury. Here is another link: http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/swfcoup.html

    The speaker fails to alert us to is the fact that the skull is not smooth inside. That is what causes the injury. In fact, there are boney, pin-like or needle-like protrusions inside the skull. When the brain bounces around in this fashion, the brain grates against these spiny protrusions much like a cheese-grater.

    There are two other forms of impact that cause brain injury too, the direct-on, and the rotational. Protect your head is right! I spoke at a National Conference here in Michigan two years ago about this topic. One fact that I press very hard is that by the time a class of students graduates high school, more than 12% of all of the students will have sustained at least one TBI (brain injury). The presentations that I deliver revolve around my research on the need for neurocognitive rehabilitation following such an injuries.

    What shocks most people is that in many cases, a closed-head injury is far more damaging to cognitive processing than an open head injury from say a gunshot.

    Excellent thread...thank-you!

    Doc2005
     
  9. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Member

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    One thing to remember is to keep your chin tucked. IF you get in a hand to hand fight don't extend your neck or lift your chin. A shot straight into the chin drives the jawbone backward into a complex of nerves that knocks you out. Also keeping your chin tucked protects your throat and larynx from attack. Temple blows are also potential knock outs as are blows to the back of the neck/base of the cranium.
     
  10. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Only thing I can offer is to protect the head above all else. If you get stabbed or shot in the heart, you'll at least have enough time to take the guy with you. If you take a knockout punch to the head, that's it, you're totally at his mercy.

    And always remember that criminals never work alone. If you only see one, that means his buddies are hidden. The easiest way to not get surrounded is to turn around and run before the fight even starts.
     
  11. Sox

    Sox Member

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    And Remember getting knocked out is potentially lethal. At first glance this may sound obvious. I am not talking about the closed head injury itself, but from something even more innocuous and rudimentary-an obstructed airway. In a fight you get popped in the noggin and bam your out, bad guy walks off and dumb luck you suffocate simply because you have no means to open your airway. In sparring be careful!! There are alot of dumb instructors out there with bad info. I remember my first night of Muay Thai, we did this round robin thing sparring with 4-5 guys at 90sec - 120sec rounds. The instructor didn't require headgear or mouthpieces- really stupid. I left and sought a competent instructor. Goodluck.
     
  12. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    Getting knocked out is no big deal. I've been knocked out a couple of times. No after effects. Didn't hurt me at

    lasjdflj ; ldfkj; flsdj ;fdm

    Wait a second where am I again?

    Oh on THR. Yeah, like I was saying. I prefer .45 over 9mm.
     
  13. Koz

    Koz Member

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    Learn to box.
     
  14. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Larry, you are such an irreverent goof.


    I like it. :D
     
  15. nezumi

    nezumi Member

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    Harry Houdini actually died from a single kidney punch. Ironically, if he had been SHOT in the kidney, he'd probably have been smart enough to go to the hospital, and he might still be alive today!
     
  16. Soap

    Soap Member

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    Awesome video.

    And remember, many threats don't start until they're 1-5' away, so learn how to defend yourself at extreme close range.
     
  17. rkh

    rkh member

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    Cardinal rule: Keep your fists up, and your chin down!
    At least until you take the fight to the ground and start working your submissions. Unless you happen to be brawling with Bruce Lee, it'll be very difficult for your opponent to get enough force behind his blows to knock you out or break your bones once the grappling begins.
     
  18. rantingredneck

    rantingredneck Member

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    Not to nitpick rkh but the submissions are for the mat in the dojo. On the streets, grappling is dangerous even if you are experienced. No rules against blades coming into the fight and such. Providing it stays unarmed hand to hand and you do manage to gain control you have two choices. Maintain control or break something so you don't have to. I don't want him tapping out I want him staying down and not a threat.
     
  19. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    Could have made an interesting video of a knockout at local sportsbar Saturday night. One shot to the temple and he hit the floor like you pulled it out from under him. Not bragging, but I was suprised at how fast he hit the floor. I'm sure it helped that he was 175 lbs and I'm 230 lbs on an empty stomach. Kinda scary to think about being in his position. I could have done whatever I wanted while he was out. By the way, I'm not a bully. He was drunk and tried to start a shoving match. Shoving matches are for kindergardeners. Guys like that are the reason I usually stay as far possible from bars in general.
     
  20. Caimlas

    Caimlas Member

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    I knew a guy in college who almost died from internal bleeding. He got head-butted in the spleen (you read that right) and blacked out immediately thereafter. He came to, and didn't feel too many ill affects until a while later, when he started to get cold...
     
  21. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    Ya might want to snopes that one. I did. :rolleyes:
     
  22. lamazza

    lamazza Member

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    That clip was from a pretty good show about the different martial arts and which one is the best.
     
  23. James T Thomas

    James T Thomas Member

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    broken hand knocks you out

    There was an informative article on the physiology of the knock out punch; I believe it was in a past issue of the Popular Science magazine. If anyone is interested, please post. I think I have it store in my attic.

    The summary of the finding was that it was head rotation, not back and forth concussion that was responsible for unconsciousness. The strike to the chin, because of the leverage involved, would rotate the head, and like a hard boiled egg floating in a glass of water, the brain tended to remain in it's original position -inertia, while the skull spun around some. This action placed tortion on the brain stem causing the loss of consciousness.

    It seemed valid. I've seen some "light" appearing puches knock out a man very effectively, while some Rock Marciano hits, while staggering the guy, some remained in the fight. The deceased Bruce Lee advocated this type of "spinning" punch.

    Not for the sake of argument, but just informed discussion, I'm skeptical of the temple as a target for knock out. The "sphenoid" bone is relatively quite thick. Now the overlying tissues; arteries and nerves are there, but I do not think trauma to them _the punch type of hit we are discussing, would knock out. Hurt, but no knock out. Perhaps it is just the head rotation mechanism that I mentioned. With the nerve sensitivity involved, the person being struck may flinch away, thereby contributing to the rotational effect.

    To substantiate my contention, observe the telephone head slap knock out in the clip.
    The victim was forcefully slapped, where his head was abruptly rotated away, and down he went.

    I do not recommend forefist punching skills for the reason of the weakness of the metatarsal bones involved. Pro boxers have a reason to wrap their hands and then in addition, have padded mits on. And they still end up breaking those bones. Break the bones in your hand while defending yourself, and you have effectively crippled yourself. And there is also sprained wrist and fingers. I would not strike any of the bodies bony areas with my fist.

    If you practice this, you will revert to it reflexively; without thought.

    And forget about "Odd Job" hardening/ forging/ callusing of the hands.
    They are intended to serve you for delicate to difficult work, but not battering like a mule's hoof.

    Any comers?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  24. Creeping Incrementalism

    Creeping Incrementalism Member

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    When I was young and got in fights, I didn't even think about hands as something to strike with. I went straight to elbows and knees as the striking part of my swing. Fingers are made for delictaley pulling triggers and pushing keys for gabbing on the Internet like so. :)
     
  25. willbrink

    willbrink Member

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    Hell, you just need to watch the Leddel/Jackson fight for that....:D
     
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