And are they surprised?

[Emfuser]

Emfuser, No one is trying to push religon in your face. No one is telling you to believe in something you don't want to believe in.No one is telling you to read the bible and believe in God the way armoredman does. I understand that your a 2nd ammendment believer and thats all well and good. I think you are going over board at little bit. I have heard some Judges say they can't do thier job without God in thier life.

If you don't like the poster armoredman put up just blow it off like it's not there. It is sending a clear message and it's a good one. Let's not get this thread closed because you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If you take what I have written in this thread as inferring that
-Someone is trying to push religon in my face.
-Someone is telling me to believe in something I don't want to believe in.
-Someone is telling me to read the bible and believe in God the way armoredman does.

Then you are grossly mistaken, and should re-read what I said. My point is, very simply, that the poster in question is great for preaching to the choir that is the guns n' jesus crowd, but could very easily be used by the other side, against the RKBA cause. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what more to tell you.

 

[TheBluesMan]

...could very easily be used by the other side, against the RKBA cause.

How? I am really missing your point here. How could this poster possibly be used against the RKBA?

 

[hankdatank1362]

Oooh! Ooooh! Obama was right!!!! They do cling to guns and religion!!! Vote for Obama!!!!


Seriously, I have no idea how a tongue-in-cheek poster could possibly damage RKBA. No worse that the "Extreme Shock" poster


Good job Armoredman!

 

[Emfuser]

How? I am really missing your point here. How could this poster possibly be used against the RKBA?

You have to think outside of the RKBA mentality. Ask yourself, how would antis use this against us? How would moderates perceive this poster? Does this poster give too literal a fit to the negative stereotype that Mr. Obama used?

Just for grins, would you like me to drop this in some places outside of the sheltered RKBA community and see what they have to say? I'm sure the responses will be... amusing.

 

[ShelleyB.]

Expand on the poster

IMHO, the poster is far too limiting. Use it to present a broad spectrum of nationalities, and clothing range from casual dress as shown to boardroom business suits, medical garb, teachers, factory workers - a real cross section of America. Turn Obama's elitist comment against him as he has mistakenly focused on only a narrow band of people.

The original is only preaching to the choir. Make it something a lot of people can identify with instead of only one.

 

[rfurtkamp]

Use it to present a broad spectrum of nationalities, and clothing range from casual dress as shown to boardroom business suits, medical garb, teachers, factory workers - a real cross section of America.

I find this type of approach in advertising/pr to be even more offputting than just white people in photos - it's politically correct pandering IMO.

It's like every ad I see these days, it's always various obvious ethnicities with tattoos and whatnot displaying oddity as a badge. I say this as somebody you'd never see in the old GQ photo shoots, ever.

 

[TheBluesMan]

Ask yourself, how would antis use this against us? How would moderates perceive this poster? Does this poster give too literal a fit to the negative stereotype that Mr. Obama used?

What is the point of asking myself? I'm asking you.

You made the statement that it could be used against the RKBA - back up that statement and explain it to me, please.

Barack H. Obama may have meant it as a negative stereotype, but I think his words backfired. I embrace the stereotype and support armoredman's work as representative of a very large and very responsible group of gun owners.

 

[Vermont]

Wow, a five page thread about politics AND religion that didn't get locked. How did that happen?

 

[Emfuser]

What is the point of asking myself? I'm asking you.

You made the statement that it could be used against the RKBA - back up that statement and explain it to me, please.

Barack H. Obama may have meant it as a negative stereotype, but I think his words backfired. I embrace the stereotype and support armoredman's work as representative of a very large and very responsible group of gun owners.

*sigh*
I was hoping you'd be able to think in a wider circle than the RKBA community.

Please read post 29 and let me know if you are still unclear. If you are, I will explain things in more detail.

As I've said, if you want some first-hand examples, I can take that picture to some more general communities, of mixed political views, and post some of that feedback over here, just to show you examples of real people outside of section of the political spectrum that picture already appeals to.

It's really frustrating to me when the responses I get here can be summarized (in some instances) to "what...? you mean there are people out there who think differently than me?" YES, and it's a good thing to be aware of during an election year! Just because you think "hey, that's just like me and it's awesome!" doesn't mean that everyone who sees that has the same reaction.

 

[Emfuser]

Wow, a five page thread about politics AND religion that didn't get locked. How did that happen?

IMO, this has remained pretty civil. I've only seen a few "well, this is what 'merica was founded on, so you can get out if you don't like it" types of comments and nobody is doing any sort of name-calling or engaging in nastiness.

 

[Vermont]

IMO, this has remained pretty civil.

I agree. It's just very rare.

 

[csmkersh]

The government being paralyzed isn't a bad thing, IMNSHO.
​

 

[Gentleman Ranker]

Just my opinion.

I think Emfuser does have a point, though it may be a bit overstated in this case.

Without going on about it, think about the audience for the poster and just what message is embedded in it. If you had to translate what the poster is saying into one plain-English sentence, 25 words or less, what would it be? Now, ask yourself what someone who wasn't already on the RKBA side would say it was?

If the poster is for circulation "among friends", I don't have any problem with it. I myself am a non-believer (some Christian folks have told me that that's the polite word for it) and don't feel excluded, insulted, etc. etc. I myself don't see a message in the poster that says anything along the lines of "Only Christians are welcome to own guns."

However ... remember that messages delivered by poster or similar visual format don't so much make an actual argument as they create an emotional response. The key to good advertising (and good propaganda, btw) is to find out what the audience already feels good about and connect the New Idea (New Candidate, New Product) to that. If you accidentally connect the New Idea to something the audience doesn't like, it can blow up in your face.

If I have a criticism of the poster (and this is only valid "outside the family"), it would be that it may send a message that "The only alternative to our bad situation now is guns and Christianity." I don't believe that armoredman intends it to say that, but I think that some audiences, given their existing (if wrong) ideas about some things, could easily see it. Someone who is already nervous about guns and isn't Christian could see it as offering a choice between two situations that scare or exclude them.

Of course, some antis will not be convinced by anything whatever. We can write them off. There are lots of people who are on the fence, or at least reachable (I'm doing that with someone at work even now). It works a lot better to meet those folks where they are and gently bring them around rather than berating their ignorance or lack of patriotism.

Christian folk, think about this: is the most effective evangelism based on straight-up hellfire and damnation delivered in a self-righteous way? For some, maybe, but I am guessing that such an approach by itself will lose more people than it gains.

In summary, I don't see anything wrong with the poster as something to share amongst RKBA folks. It's nicely done and the message is clear, if not applicable to all of us. If the audience is the unevangelized non-believers (in RKBA ), then I think the message might be clearer.

That's one thing I generally like about the work of Our Esteemed Host Oleg ... it emphasizes practical consequences that apply to everyone.

regards,

GR

 

[hankdatank1362]

As I've said, if you want some first-hand examples, I can take that picture to some more general communities, of mixed political views, and post some of that feedback over here, just to show you examples of real people outside of section of the political spectrum that picture already appeals to.

I'm sure some would freak. But the only reason they would freak out is because there's a gun in the picture, not because they are insinuating something that isn't there involving organized religion and the gun lobby.

The ones that would flip at the sight of a picture of a gun wouldn't be any more or less offended by this poster as they woud any other work by Armoredman or Oleg.

 

[hdrk1955]

Not only do I like it, I understand where it comes from

 

[Emfuser]

Well put, Gentleman Ranker. Thank you for expanding on what I've been getting at.

 

[freebird60]

+1 to Gentleman Ranker

 

[springmom]

Of course, some antis will not be convinced by anything whatever. We can write them off. There are lots of people who are on the fence, or at least reachable (I'm doing that with someone at work even now). It works a lot better to meet those folks where they are and gently bring them around rather than berating their ignorance or lack of patriotism.

Except that the poster does neither one. There is no lambasting of ANYONE in it (with the possible exception of Wall Street, I suppose). It is in first person, singular. It does not demand, preach, hector, or even invite. It is a first person singular statement, and as such, just flat doesn't fit any of the critiques that are being presented here.

If I say that *I* like venison medallions in port wine and cranberries, does that somehow alienate, offend, and upset everyone who likes venison but despises port wine and cranberries and thinks the combination an abomination?

And if it does, why on earth should I give a flip?

The lovely thing about freedom of expression is that it does not have to pander to universal tastes. He can say what he wants in his poster; Oleg can say what he wants in his posters, and y'all who are in such a tizzy about a Bible and a gun in the same pic can say what you want in your own posters.

There is no such thing as one single piece of creative art that is going to ring everybody's chimes. If this were offputting to some nonbelievers, well, there will be others who, like some of the posters on this thread, will get the point and think it well put. But just because a few people here don't like it does not in fact mean that it needs correction.

Springmom

 

[Gentleman Ranker]

springmom (#118) replies:

...around rather than berating their ignorance or lack of patriotism.

Except that the poster does neither one. There is no lambasting of ANYONE in it (with the possible exception of Wall Street, I suppose). ...

I did not express myself well, there. I apologize to armoredman for appearing to accuse him of these things. I was thinking of a conversation that I had with someone else at another time, and it leaked over into what I was writing. I should have been more careful. I do, however, stand by the general idea that I expressed, however poorly.

If I say that *I* like venison medallions in port wine and cranberries, does that somehow alienate, offend, and upset everyone who likes venison but despises port wine and cranberries and thinks the combination an abomination?

And if it does, why on earth should I give a flip?

Because there actually are people who consider your venison an abomination (PETA and the like). Fortunately for us all, they are a small, marginal group who are seen by most Americans as irrelevant lefty nut-jobs.

There are also people who want to take away your guns, all of them, if not all at once. They stand a good chance of taking the White House. That bothers me, and without intending the least infringement of your freedom of thought and expression, I think it should bother you also.

When I was young, guns were "normal" and more people had them. Urbanization and other factors are making guns less and less relevant to daily life for most people, which makes it easier for the antis to demonize them. If we don't take positive action to stop that, we lose. That's it in a nutshell.

IMHO, the best long-term response to this is to work to legitimize firearms, both for sport and self-defense, amongst the population at large. If enough people agree with us, they will rein in the politicians regardless of what the politicians think. If not, we lose. It is also MHO that the best way to bring people around is with friendly persuasion. To do that we need to find some kind of common ground with those we want to persuade. We don't need to give up our beliefs or compromise them, but we do need to make the message palatable to those we want to persuade. Otherwise we lose.

Most of the people I know who support more gun control are just ill-informed and frightened of them. Step one is to calm them down and educate them.

armoredman posted his work on a public forum, which usually implies that he expects (or at least, will tolerate) comments. I apologize to him again if he wasn't trying to do what I am commenting about. It just seemed to come up and I thought the comments would be constructive.

regards,

GR

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

How about those of us who enjoy our RKBA but don't care for religion?

There's a freeware program called Gimp that is basically Photoshop for free. Have at it.

 

[armoredman]

I understand anyone posting unsolicited work had better have a Nomex flame suit on, I am used to it, and have seen people here go after Oleg too, hammer and tongs. S'OK, I have posted many pictures here, never got QUITE this reaction before.
GR, everyone is entitled to thier opinions and feelings - I have seen works of high art go for millions of dollars that I wouldn't have shelled out a buck and a half for in any case.
But if causing controversy is a mark of advancement in the artistic world, hey, I'm moving up!

 

[Gentleman Ranker]

armoredman replies:

GR, everyone is entitled to thier opinions and feelings - I have seen works of high art go for millions of dollars that I wouldn't have shelled out a buck and a half for in any case.
But if causing controversy is a mark of advancement in the artistic world, hey, I'm moving up!

I think we both are, in different ways.

Seriously ... it wasn't about whether I liked the poster or not ... I do, actually. But I spent a little time in a PsyOps unit (Reserve) and wrote a thesis on propaganda analysis. That doesn't make me an expert (I wish it did), but I'm not just making this stuff up, either. My goal, however poorly achieved, was not to say what was good or bad, but what might work better for a certain purpose. Maybe that was not your purpose, maybe it doesn't matter if it was or not. I like to think that at the end of the day, we have the same goal in mind.

In whichever case, keep making posters, cousin ... and make 'em your way.

regards,

GR

 

[kingpin008]

Seriously, I have no idea how a tongue-in-cheek poster could possibly damage RKBA.

Because not everyone will get the "tongue-in-cheek" part.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

For example, by having the book in the person's hand be Life of the Buddha.

However ... remember that messages delivered by poster or similar visual format don't so much make an actual argument as they create an emotional response. The key to good advertising (and good propaganda, btw) is to find out what the audience already feels good about and connect the New Idea (New Candidate, New Product) to that. If you accidentally connect the New Idea to something the audience doesn't like, it can blow up in your face

Most people DO like Christianity, I think this poster makes guns seem normal. Having a Buddhist book likely WOULD alienate people, on the other hand.

How does this make guns seem normal? Well, some guy walking down the street with a Bible in hand, I can connect with that, most people can, it is seen as a wholesome activity, in contrast to all the crime and the like that goes on today. It ties in guns with this wholesome activity, giving guns a good image, while also connecting with any fears over the economy today.
I think using a normal size revolver was very important, it may be the one type of gun the general public doesn't see as "evil", it's what your Grandpa would use, or what that old lady used to defend herself.

And according to gallup polls, around 68% of americans are against a total handgun ban(or maybe it was a total gun ban), but it might be less if it was just a ban on semi-autos.

 

[Tacbandit]

"Then make your own poster, I think it's good to reach out to the religious community, they are the most likely to vote for pro-gun candidates."




Hey, ya'll look....I don't believe there was any offense intended by the picture.
I'm not really big on religion, but I am big on my relationship with my God,
who is my master. However, I don't try to impose that on anyone...We all have different beliefs, views and opinions...What we need to be concerned with here on this site, is what we have in common...RKBA...Let's try not to be so thin skinned about things just because it doesn't look exactly like we think it should...stick with the things we have in common...the common thread...