And are they surprised?

[3KillerBs]

What I'm saying is that such associations must be either avoided, or made with careful consideration of their effects outside a staunchly pro-RKBA community. That's what I emphasized in post 137.

So you believe then that we should enable prejudice by catering to the bigots who run shrieking at the sight of a Bible?

Again, its the equivalent of saying that blacks should avoid offending racists by going around in whiteface makeup.

Poking fun at their bigotry and shaming their narrow-minded intolerance with our laughter is a better idea. It may harden those already confirmed in their anti-gun and anti-Christian bigotry but it will reveal their foolishness to the fence-sitters.

 

[Emfuser]

No, 3KillerBs, I am not saying you should enable prejudice by catering to the bigots who run shrieking at the sight of a bible. We already know that they're a minority whose minds are not going to be changed.

What I am saying is that you should disable prejudice by choosing carefully the words and images we use to represent the RKBA community. What that means is stepping outside of our own, comfortable, familiar shoes, and into those of others (not specifically anti-RKBA, anti-religion leftists) to see if the message comes across the same.

As jlbraun stated, advocacy is about reaching out and that means reaching beyond the comfortable confines of places like this. That means using clear, positive messages that appeal to broad audiences so that they may be brought into our fold.

Does your average person here on THR understand what armoredman means? YES It's a sarcastic jab. Does a well-thought, rational person, who is informed about politics understand what it means? Most likely, YES. Ok, sounds good so far, right?

Ok, lets enter the realm of politics. Now the audience is bigger, more varied, less rational, typically not very well informed about current events or history, and keenly susceptible to emotional influence and bias. That is standard fare for politics. Now what does that poster mean?

Here are some of the more interesting or negative response quotes I gathered in a brief time, in direct response to the picture. Yes there were positive and neutral ones. Nobody is denying that In the threads I created, I'd say the positive/neutral ratio to negative was about 50:50 one fairly neutral place and about 20:80 in someplace that tilts left.

(not sure if image tags will work)

(apparently jesus has the poor habit of putting his finger on the trigger of his AR)

its pretty pathetic to cling to either when a problem arises

I just find it a little oxymoronic. A weapon meant to kill along with the teachings of a man who preached of peace, understanding, and kindness.

The ad bothers me a little because the thought of people clinging to guns in the same way they cling to bibles in adversity seems a bad comparison. Of course, I don't believe in religion, so it tends to scare me when people use only opinion and fear to make decisions, which is how clinging to a bible seems to work. I would rather people used intelligence and reason with guns.

Fear and ignorance.

(Fear and ignorance.) this is how i feel when i see it. insecurity tends to make people run to their primitive instincts.

the bible represents tribalism and the gun means will to kill, which is how animals behave.
not a very civilized, mature or intelligent approach to the problem imo

I think its more of a statement on how people are more concerned about guns and religion than they are the state of our country. I have numerous friends who have said they are gonna vote for whoever lets them keep their guns. They don't give a **** about anything else. Sure its their right, but its terribly short sighted. Same with the people who only give a **** about abortion.

And its hardly an ad. Looks like someone made it in paint in 35 seconds and put it on the internet.

As a gun owner myself, i'm not a fan of the poster. It just reinforces the idea that all gun owners are religious nut jobs.

+1 my first thought is that it fits / reinforces the stereotype.

Edit: Oops, forgot the feedback! Poster looks good, though it's not hard-hitting enough for me. Also, I disagree with the guy who criticised his dress. I like the clean-cut, mama's boy look to his grooming, as it is in keeping with the message of hypocrisy, I think. That "shiny on top, ****ty underneath" kinda thing. Dig it.

I think it is fairly accurate for a percentage of our population. And is exactly what Obama was talking about. We have reasons to be bitter, it is just that some people like to see the trees and forget there is more to a forest than trees.

Well, at least the weapons may become useful.

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword."
- Jesus Christ

I'm all about self reliance and rugged individualism, but this poster makes gun enthusiasts (like myself) look like raving loons. That sort of mentality is probably only embraced by a handful of gun owners.

It is a direct comment on something Obama said.

I guess I missed the raving loons part.

Right but it implies that the end is near and i'll need my guns and my god to get through whats coming next. Thats pretty raving loon-esk to me :idk:

I'm all for the gun part.
Don't give a **** about the bible, though.

So, my point is not to highlight the obvious that there are people who will disagree with it. It's not to disparage religion. It's not create a negative association between guns and religion or criticize the people who regularly associate them.

My point is that we ALL must be aware that there are perspectives out there different from our own, and that something we view as a good thing can be conveyed by others or merely interpreted by others in many different ways, including very negative ones. That's important to realize on the political stage, particularly during an election year.

I assure you, I am not the barbarian at the gates some of you respond to me as.

 

[Tacbandit]

"I'm all for the gun part.
Don't give a **** about the bible, though."


That's ok...It's author still cares about you...

 

[elChupacabra!]

Man Emfuser... you sure have sparked one hell of an argument for somebody with just 59 posts here...

So here's something that I'm not sure if you've considered... I've read some of your posts how, regarding this poster, many RKBA folks essentially cling to their guns but not their religion, if you'll allow me to frame my response in the terms of everyone's favorite Presidential candidate. You suggest that, to reach a broader audience, the Bible be dropped, focusing only on the gun....

The problem I see there is that, if you did that, there would be an argument over whether he should be carrying a revolver or an autoloader. Or a Glock or 1911.

If we could settle THAT argument, there may be many many who are upset that the subject of the poster is white. It might be more appropriate to depict him as Black, or Hispanic.

Or as a woman. Surely many in the RKBA community feel that a woman would represent them better.

Do you see what I'm driving at? We are a diverse community that can't be summed up in any single depiction, poster, statement, etc. I think that focusing on what makes us different is a mistake... if we insisted on just ONE message to represent ALL of us, we'd never be able to settle on it.

So I think that the poster is good for what it was intended - to respond to a political comment. If you don't like the Bible or Religion, it would be great if you made ANOTHER poster with what you feel represents YOUR group best, and distribute that, as well.

I think Oleg does a good job of this with his posters, showing a variety of firearms, races, sexes, etc. in his posters. None of them (individually) represents the whole community, but as a body, they do a nice job.

I think armoredman is contributing to our cause and not detracting from it. I think we should all do our best to contribute, as well, instead of just criticizing another's contribution because it isn't just so, the way we might like it....?

This is my opinion, of course

 

[Emfuser]

Man Emfuser... you sure have sparked one hell of an argument for somebody with just 59 posts here...

This is definitely not my first rodeo, sir.

So here's something that I'm not sure if you've considered... I've read some of your posts how, regarding this poster, many RKBA folks essentially cling to their guns but not their religion, if you'll allow me to frame my response in the terms of everyone's favorite Presidential candidate. You suggest that, to reach a broader audience, the Bible be dropped, focusing only on the gun....

There are really two nested suggestions. One is preference for not associating guns and religion at all when doing advocacy, because it makes it easier for opponents to draw emotions and confuse issues. The other is to not play into negative stereotypes, because what is rightly perceived here as a sarcastic jab may be perceived elsewhere as merely playing into a stereotype that draws up negative emotions in many people. Associating yourself with bad feelings is never helpful.

The problem I see there is that, if you did that, there would be an argument over whether he should be carrying a revolver or an autoloader. Or a Glock or 1911.

Yeah, but would that be as interesting as this?

If we could settle THAT argument, there may be many many who are upset that the subject of the poster is white. It might be more appropriate to depict him as Black, or Hispanic.

Again, I think that discussion would be substantially less interesting than this one. Such criticisms are more easily addressed, as so done by Oleg.

Or as a woman. Surely many in the RKBA community feel that a woman would represent them better.

See above

Do you see what I'm driving at? We are a diverse community that can't be summed up in any single depiction, poster, statement, etc. I think that focusing on what makes us different is a mistake... if we insisted on just ONE message to represent ALL of us, we'd never be able to settle on it.

I sure do see what you're driving at. I do not, however advocate only one message. I simply advise against entangling topics that are easily drawn into fights of emotion (which are infinitely more difficult than single topic arguments), and can thus be used against the RKBA cause publicly.

So I think that the poster is good for what it was intended - to respond to a political comment. If you don't like the Bible or Religion, it would be great if you made ANOTHER poster with what you feel represents YOUR group best, and distribute that, as well.

I am an inept artist.

I think Oleg does a good job of this with his posters, showing a variety of firearms, races, sexes, etc. in his posters. None of them (individually) represents the whole community, but as a body, they do a nice job.

I agree

I think armoredman is contributing to our cause and not detracting from it. I think we should all do our best to contribute, as well, instead of just criticizing another's contribution because it isn't just so, the way we might like it....?

I think he may be doing both. That's where many here disagree with me.

This is my opinion, of course

Thanks for sharing it. I think these discussions are fun.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Emfuser,

Duly noted... here's another consideration: Perhaps not every message should be circulated to every audience... this message would probably do better in a church, in a Southern town, or at a religious university rather than at the Manhattan Socialist Party office...? And another message might do better around one's coworkers than this one, certainly.

I guess my point is, that the argument should be tailored to the audience. Not all will be effective at all venues. That is a given.

But I do see that this one can be very appropriate in certain areas.

Does that make sense?

ETA I think these discussions are fun too

 

[Emfuser]

elChupacabra!,

Yes, that makes sense. I agree that every message should be circulated to every audience. Were this pre-internet days, then such control is at least somewhat feasible, but in this day and age, it most certainly is not. You are quite correct that carefully-tailored messages will work best inside of the target audience. What I'm here to point out is that sometimes they'll be picked up as ammo by the opposition!

Good to have you here. I'm glad someone isn't sitting there getting all heated at me. I really don't enjoy it when people get upset at what I say.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Emfuser,

Of course. We can disagree and be civil - we know what's important that brings us together, which is why we're both members here.

More than anything I hate seeing the divisiveness among a group that desperately needs to be cohesive, or at least cooperative despite differing tertiary opinions & beliefs.

I may be a Christian... but I go to Church to agree with people about my religion... I come to THR to agree with people about guns

 

[MakAttak]

Yes, that makes sense. I agree that every message should be circulated to every audience. Were this pre-internet days, then such control is at least somewhat feasible, but in this day and age, it most certainly is not. You are quite correct that carefully-tailored messages will work best inside of the target audience. What I'm here to point out is that sometimes they'll be picked up as ammo by the opposition!

There is a matter of putting your best foot forward. That point is well taken.

There is also a matter of being true to yourself. ANYTHING posted on the web can be used against the second amendment cause, even if not created by those who support the second amendment.

I believe your anecdotal evidence perfectly illustrated my point: this poster shows a clean-cut, not aggressive man with a bible and a gun. Those bigots who assume all Christians are fear mongering lunatics and all gun owners are uneducated survivalists immediately see the "Republican Jesus" poster instead of what is represented.

This poster has done nothing to cause them to believe all gun owners are raving lunatic Theocratic bible-pounders. They already believed it.

It may, however, show some people that owning a gun and a bible doesn't mean shoving either of them in someone else's face. It does mean that we have no reason to be ashamed of either.

Now, on a lighter note, where's that "You just sit there, sonny and let's have a little talk about Jesus while we wait for the police" poster?

 

[Justin]

...aaaaaaaaand we're done.