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and Pataki/NY proposes our first american gulag...

Discussion in 'Legal' started by scubie02, Jan 19, 2006.

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  1. scubie02

    scubie02 Member

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    In the local paper that Pataki is proposing that Camp Pharsalia (one of our prisons they have been wanting to close for the past several years because crime is down and we don't have enough criminals--but the politico types have fought tooth and nail to keep it and the money it generates) be torn down, then a new "facility" built where NY will keep all the sex offenders who have done their time and have been let out of prison. :scrutiny: Well, sec offenders are a pretty unsympathetic group--well, unless its like one of our students who was 18 and who's 16 yr old gf's parents had him arrested for messing around with their daughter, but maybe he still deserves to live in a camp the rest of his life. But, since we've decided its ok to keep released sex offenders in a camp the rest of their lives, which group shall we decide next its ok to do that to? Hmmmm.


    I wonder what would happen if we decided that those "white collar" criminals like the Enron types should live in a "camp" the rest of their lives? After all, their crimes were arguably much more heinous than that student--they affected thousands of people, ruined lives...I bet they'd pass a law where THEY go in a camp forever...
     
  2. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

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    "Compared to non-sex offenders released from State prisons, released sex offenders were 4 times more likely to be rearrested for a sex crime."

    Source - Bureau of Justice Statistics, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rsorp94.htm

    Personally, if they want to build a facility for these "people" - I'll support it. I'd really get behind it if the facility were on a sinking boat 300 miles off our coast in frigid water. I have zero tolerance for sex offenders.
     
  3. EVIL5LITER

    EVIL5LITER Member

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    I'm more in favor of castration (be it chemical or physical) for heinous violators or repeat offenders than concentration camps.
     
  4. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

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    Repeat offenders? I'm in favor of not giving them the opportunity to become repeat offenders.
     
  5. Janitor

    Janitor Senior Member

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    Not that they don't deserve that, but it won't stop them from doing their nasty little deeds. They'll find a prostethic of some sort. This kind of thing is NOT about sex. It's about control.

    +1
     
  6. wingnutx

    wingnutx Member

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    I'm more in favor of life sentences, thus making this a moot point.

    The bar must be so high, though. The original poster is correct that not all 'sex offenders' are equally offensive.
     
  7. scubie02

    scubie02 Member

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    but you see, that's how they get the ball rolling. You pick some group that people don't mind having bad things done to, and so people say "well, those types deserve it". But then you have set the precedent. If its ok to do it to "them", its ok to do it to other groups too.

    "The trouble with fighting for human freedoms is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning, if it is to be stopped at all".


    This thread just proves the point and that gov't knows what its doing. I wonder what percentsge of criminals who get out of jail and aren't supposed to own guns get them again anyway? In which case, its pretty clear to me that "gun people" have a high incidence of recidivism...hmmm...so maybe there should be a law that people convicted of crimes involving guns should go in a camp for the rest of their lives...I know its often the case that if somebody steals and commits suicide with a gun, they go after the guns owner because he must not have stored it carefully enough--probably just do it again--off to camp for that fella...or maybe you shot that guy breaking into your house, but he was just there to steal your tv, and that big knife he had was just to pry open the window and such...not a justifiable shoot, and you probably don't seem remorseful...obviously do it again...
     
  8. jacobtowne

    jacobtowne Member

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    How would that work with female sex offenders?:)
    JT
     
  9. EghtySx

    EghtySx Member

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    If they want to build a facility for sex offenders how about a mausoleum?
     
  10. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    This come to mind when reading this thread.

    First They Came for the Jews

    First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    Pastor Martin Niemöller
     
  11. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    Every day, in every way, we need to bring back exile. Plenty of islands around.
     
  12. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Outstanding, longeyes!:D

    I have long called for the creation of a "Mopeberia" where repeat offenders would be sent. Cuba would be a great place or somewhere in the South Pacific.:)
     
  13. Herself

    Herself member

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    Didn't they used to call that place of exile "Australia?"

    ...And before that, they called it "the American Colonies."

    Tellya what, if they get exiled to the Moon or the Asteroids, I'll find some technical offense that doesn't harm persons to commit to get sent there. It seems to be a good way to get out from under, historically.

    It does beat building concentration camps or reservations -- but not by much.

    At what point in this Great Plan For The Perfection Of Society does the notion of "having paid one's debt to society" come into play? Is there any room at all for restitutional justice, or should we start lopping off the hands of thieves and branding adulterors now?

    --Herself
     
  14. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    My thoughts

    There are different levels of sex offenders in most states. The guy that is 18 with a 16 year old girlfriend would only be a Level 1 sex offender in all of the states that I know of!!

    Some guy that rapes little kids in the park should not be released into the general public. We have laws to put down vicious animals that are known to bite and harm people. I don't any reason we can't keep some of these people that prey on small children locked up.
     
  15. Cellar Dweller

    Cellar Dweller Member

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    Slight problem here

    U.S. Constitution - Amendment 5
    Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings
    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    U.S. Constitution - Amendment 8
    Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual punishment
    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    Criminal is tried, found guilty and sentenced. Sentence completed. Released from prison and "released" into an exile camp...
    Either prison for x years OR immediate walled exile, OK. Not both.

    I nominate New Orleans; since construction crews are already there, they could build walls while rebuilding levees. The second camp could be Washington, D.C. :neener:
     
  16. ScottsGT

    ScottsGT Member

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    I once met a guy that was charged and found guilty of a sex crime. He was urinating in a back alley after dark. The prosecuted him for "Exposing Himself" in public. Never mind he was facing a corner or a wall out of sight of anyone. He now is on the sex offenders registry the rest of his life.
     
  17. Chipperman

    Chipperman Member

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    There are a few versions of Niemoller's statement floating around, but the one believed to be the correct one from 1945 is this one:

    In Germany they first came for the Communists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Catholics,
    and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

    Then they came for me —
    and by that time no one was left to speak up

    =======================================
    I agree with the sentiment that sex offenders are among the most heinous criminals, but if they are put into "special housing" AFTER serving their time, that sets a very dangerous precedent.
     
  18. Dmack_901

    Dmack_901 Member

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    I'm assuming they wouldn't be put into this camp after their sentance, but after their jail term w/ this as part of their sentance. Otherwise it's just plain unconstitutional. But If it's part of their sentance, say as an alternative for life in prison, that's no too unreasonable IMO.
     
  19. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    From the originating post....
     
  20. Alex45ACP

    Alex45ACP Member

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    Me too, but we have to let them out after a few years to make room for all the people arrested in the "War on (people who use certain types of) Drugs".
     
  21. scubie02

    scubie02 Member

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    the article seemed to be saying that they would go there after having served their time in prison. We already had one city in NY which passed a law saying that sex offenders couldn't live within so many feet of a school, park, etc etc--it was of course soon apparent that there was NO PLACE in the city that wasn't within so many feet of the specified areas--which of course was the intent. So if you pass laws like that, pretty soon where else do they have to go, right?

    Certainly I am not defending people who prey upon little children. But I wonder how many of the "sex offenders" out there are those type? Maybe its a huge percentage, I don't know. All I know is there have been an awful lot of cases which I saw publisized where the "crime" someone was convicted of a sex crime for certainly didn't seem like something they deserved to spend the rest of their lives in a "camp" over. It is an EXTREMELY disturbing precedent set in my mind to have people in this country who have served their time told they must live in a camp. This is contrary to what this country is supposed to stand for.
     
  22. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    The problem with life imprisonment is that it costs more to keep someone in prison for a year than it would to send a deserving young person to virtually any college in the nation for the same length of time.

    The obvious solution to the problem of serious sex offenders is to hang them by the neck until dead upon their second convictions. Everybody deserves a second chance.

    I didn't say a third chance. I didn't say an umpty-seventeenth chance. I said a second chance.

    After that, they're out of here.
     
  23. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    Prisons shouldn't be used as much as we do anyway.

    Instead of all crimes leading to jail terms, crimes should have actual punishments.

    Murder someone, hang.

    Rape someone, hang.

    Molest children, hang.

    Drive drunk, hang.

    Break into someones home, or attack someone on the street, hang.

    Vandalize property, replace it, and pay the owner 10% of the value of whatever was replaced. (Value determined by whatever it costs to replace/repair it.)

    Steal 1000 dollars, pay the money back, plus 50%. Meaning, 1500 to the victim.

    Defraud someone, get same punishment as a thief. (This would REALLY nail corporate fraudsters, and inside traders.)

    Now, prisons and jails would still have uses. Holding people during trials, or in the instances where it was a more appropriate punishment, which I really don't think would be often.

    Benefits are obvious, less cost on the system, by having fewer prisons, and of course, with the real hard criminals actually getting the death penalty, crime will decrease.

    One simply has to tweak the laws, so an 18 year old banging a 17 year old doesn't hang (other tweaks as well, just one example). Also, nobody should sit on death row more than 5 years. After those fixes, I think the system will be an extremely good one.
     
  24. Krenn

    Krenn Member

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    hmmm... maybe a LITTLE extreme, but a variation might work:

    "predatory" rape, where no possible misunderstanding between parties could exist: Death penalty.

    "Date" rape: death penalty on second offense.

    "Statuatory" Rape: On third offense. must be three distinct victims.

    murder, torture, etc: on first offense

    other Violent crimes: on third offense, unless defensive gun use gets you first.

    manslaughter, drunken driving, fraud, embezzlement:

    exile and forfeiture of all assets.
     
  25. tellner

    tellner member

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    Welcome to Bizarro world where "Done your time" means "Lifetime imprisonment at the King's pleasure".
     
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