And the Purist Scream

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by GunnyUSMC, Feb 7, 2012.

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  1. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    I have only been a member here at The High Road for a short time, but have been collecting guns for many years.
    I have seen many post here that have to do with Mosins and other surplus weapons. In those post I have seen finger pointing and eye poking by those that don't agree about what others do with their surplus weapons.
    Myself, I am a bit of a Purist, but will not tell someone eles what to do with their own weapons.
    Here is something I wrote a while back and thought that some of you would like to read.


    =======================================================
    And the Purist scream, "FAKE!!"

    Should I list the names of the Purist that have sent me stocks or asked me for info on how to save a stock? The list is long.

    Ask the Purist if he has ever bought a rare rifle with a missing or broken part, Would they buy the part and replace it? Would that not also be a fake in one way or another.

    Have you ever wondered why there are Co. that sell gun parts? And Have the Purist ever sold a part to help someone to fake a repair to a collectable gun? And the un-godly thought that a Purist may have ever parted out a gun to make more money on it.

    Ivan did it with the Mosin and the K98s and a few others. The Turks did it with everything they got there hands on.

    And lets not forget US rifles that are all matching. If it was used in war, you can almost bet that at one point in it's life a part got changed out because, it was broken or worn out.

    And how many "Collectors" have switched out parts to what they call correct parts?

    We all know, are have known, of the ones that try and fake a rare gun but, that is not what I am talking about here. It is about saving history.

    I see nothing wrong with restoring a pice of history.

    Oh, and those that are troubled about what will happen with the rifle when the owner passes away. Well, can you trace your rifle back to the day it was issued, most can't.

    I have a M91 Remington that has been drilled and tapped on the left side and the barrel cut off in front of the front sight. I posted of it on another forum asking what type of repair would have been done to the barrel if it had been battle damaged. I only wished to fix up the rifle to give to a friend. I wanted to keep it as close to miltary spects as I could.

    I was acused of trying to make a fake, my thread was deleted and I was told that I could not post about it again or about how the type of repair would have been done.

    The Purist that acussed me of trying to make a fake is one of the purist that is on my list of those asking for the use of my skills in stock repair so that he may have some stocks repaired.

    I was going to do work for him, but now I am unable to allow him to use me to make fake arsenal repairs to his stocks.

    Remember that this is a HOBBY for more then 90% of us and that more then 90% of us love the history of these weapons.

    Oh! Is there anyone here that makes his living by his collection alone or do we all have some other type of job that pays the bills?

    The name Bubba (when talking about guns) always puts a bad taste in my mouth but, of lat, Purist is starting to taste the same.

    Now if you could have seen the smerk on my face as I typed this. ;)

    Be you Purist or not, must we all remember, to teach those that come to us and not push them away when they ask those silly questions that we have answered so many times. Just think of how many people asked those same silly questions before you asked it yourself.

    The Purist must learn to keep an open mind like a book, for one can not learn from a book that is closed .
     
  2. roadchoad

    roadchoad Member

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    Nice post. I like your stance on the matter.
     
  3. dev_null

    dev_null Member

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    I consider myself more of a "fun-ist." ;)
     
  4. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Shoot, be careful, might make the 'military correct' nazi's stroke out when you point out that they own fakes....

    I can hear the blood vessels popping from here.
    you do stock repairs, I'm PM'ing you a question.
     
  5. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Have you ever wondered why there are Co. that sell gun parts?"

    Gosh, no. What the heck kind of dumb question is that? I hope you didn't spend a lot on time on it.

    John
     
  6. mortablunt

    mortablunt Member

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    I swear, Gunny, that you have long been a member. Maybe I'm thinking of somebody with a similar name.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  7. CmdrSlander

    CmdrSlander Member

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    I second your thoughts and I'll add my similar sentiment: I love sporterized military rifles! I'll say it again: Sporterize all you want! There is something poetic about turning tools of war into tools of peacetime civilian leisure - time marches on! Build the rifle that works for you and do it well!

    Who's with me?

    450px-Sporter1903ironsights.jpg
     
  8. Romeo 33 Delta

    Romeo 33 Delta Member

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    I generally leave the perfect, unfired, all-matching, pristine, (did I miss anything here?) firearms for that elevated group of collectors. Now I don't want something that was a "relic, dug up at Bull Run" either. Most of my milsurps are "nice" ... some a little "rode hard/put up wet" ... some are really nice and minty-ish ... most fall in the middle ... BUT THEY ALL WORK AND I SHOOT THEM.

    I have a nice bunch of military sporters ... some of my favorites and usually not pricey because of their parentage. I personally think a sporterize M-1903 from the 50's is just about one of the sweetest things I've handled. WOW! (cmndrslander ... your avatar is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.)

    I have also managed to acquire firearms that I might not otherwise consider ... like a pair of M-1922's ... both were "ruined" by someone drilling and tapping them. They're mine now ... sporting period Lyman aperature sights, shoot better than I can and at 1/2 - 1/3 the going price for an untapped one.

    I have a nice little Winder 22 short musket that I stole because some previous owner changed out the stock front sight for a Lyman 17. Again, my kind of sights and it's mine for a fraction of the "all original" version.

    Now, someday when I die and my poor wife has to unload all my shooting stuff (God, I feel bad about sticking her with that job) ... she won't get the full value that she might have if I hadn't "cheaped out". However, I wouldn't have paid the price for the "desireable" versions anyway. I had fun owning and shooting them and some other lucky collector will have them when I'm gone.

    Now, don't get me wrong, if collecting MINT is your thing ... go for it. I will not criticize your decision ... it's AMERICA after all. I just want to thank you guys ... I've picked up a bunch of "too out of fashion to be worth anything" target rifles ... a collection of Martini Internationals, Mk-I thru Mk-V and a couple of Mauser actioned rifles, a 7 X 57 and a 7.62 X 51 ... both with Obermeyer barrels ...for dirt ... because they were apparently too old to be any good. (I shouldn't really be allowed to own them because I'm not that good a shot and no amount of practice will have any appreciable positive effect.)

    Thanks for all seconds and culls you left for me ... gotta' go downstairs now and get to reloading ... Spring's just around the corner and I got a ton of empties I gotta' fill 'cause all my adopted orphans need feeding!:D
     
  9. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    I often have someone come into the shop with a really nice milsurp, often a really nice 03a1 or maybe a 1917 Enfield, sometimes a Swede. They want to know what it would cost to restock it and put a scope on it.
    I don't discourage them, exactly, but show them in the book what their gun is worth now and what it would be worth after doing the work ( usually way, way less). Then I show them things like the newer Marlin centerfire bolt gun, the Savages, and more often than not they order one of the new guns and scope, smile as they put their old gun back in the case and thank me for being informative. I don't try to steal their guns, in fact, I don't try to get them. If they ask what I'd give I tell them 80% of what I think I can sell it for...and calculate it for them. I also show them the value change from a Bluebook from five or six years ago to what it shows now.
     
  10. jrdolall

    jrdolall Member

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    Probably the same "purists" who immediately tell someone how stupid they are for using a particular model of pistol. Or the one that can't believe anyone would EVER use that caliber for that application. There are probably 100s of peole here who really understand the love of firearms in general. There are 100s of others who really love being jerks.
     
  11. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    I have the original hatchet that George Washington used to chop down his fathers cherry tree. Of course the wooden handel has been replaced a few times, and the head has been replaced a couple of times also but it occupies the same space so it is still original right?
     
  12. 303tom

    303tom member

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    The Candyman has spoken.............

    Give em hell Gunny.........As far as moderators go always thought you were at least fair.
     
  13. irondavy

    irondavy Member

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    Hopefully I am one of the 100s that loves firearms and not one of the jerks. :)

    The only Milsurp that I own is a Yugo SKS that appears unissued and I don't think that I would ever mess with it. Aside for the creepy trigger it shoots great and has shot everything that I have fed it. I bought it to pull the stock off and tacti-cool it. I shot it a bunch and fell in love with the way it is now.

    On the other hand I have a older Marlin 336 from the 50's ( not milsurp i know but classic none the less) I put on some lowboy sights on and a 3X scope. I know "no open sights on a lever action!" I hated the open sights from the get go. My ranges are from 10 yards to 150 so the 3X works OK for all but not perfect for any. It's not "classic" and a couple of my friends have complained about it but it works for me and has taken 10+ hogs in the last year or so.

    It's funny the SKS was supposed to be my tacti-cool hogging machine but it ended up sitting in the safe in a stock configuration while my "classic" how normal people used put food on the table, gun ended up putting a bunch of food on the table here in the house.

    Thanks
    ID
     
  14. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    Count me in as mostly a purist, but can understand others' views, whether perm. altered guns had already suffered damage, or not. Those guns simply increase the value of the steadily-decreasing fraction which are still in the original configurations.
    My only guns other than the Savage .22 are all military rifles, if you can count the Norinco SKS as pure military.

    The backsliding happened because I only really like aperture sights.
    The Tech Sight recently was installed on the SKS, but mostly because the original rear sight can be re-installed.
    What an improvement for iron sight shooting! It can do about as well at 50 yards (with Wolf/Monarch) as my Enfields with apertures, all of which have nice bores and rifling.
     
  15. Tiberius67

    Tiberius67 Member

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    If you've ever read Larry Ruth's books on the M-1 Carbine, he documents how the Prime Contractors, coordinated by the Army, were constantly swapping parts to maximize production. He said that on average every Carbine made once full production began had at least one part from a different Prime contractor in it from the factory. A "collector" would swap that "incorrect" part right out. lol

    Most of the changes were made in response to failures noted in testing and in the field....as often as not "collectors" are putting inferior parts into a working gun to make it "correct".
     
  16. irondavy

    irondavy Member

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    Hopefully I am one of the 100s that loves firearms and not one of the jerks. :)

    The only Milsurp that I own is a Yugo SKS that appears unissued and I don't think that I would ever mess with it. Aside for the creepy trigger it shoots great and has shot everything that I have fed it. I bought it to pull the stock off and tacti-cool it. I shot it a bunch and fell in love with the way it is now.

    On the other hand I have a older Marlin 336 from the 50's ( not milsurp i know but classic none the less) I put on some lowboy sights on and a 3X scope. I know "no open sights on a lever action!" I hated the open sights from the get go. My ranges are from 10 yards to 150 so the 3X works OK for all but not perfect for any. It's not "classic" and a couple of my friends have complained about it but it works for me and has taken 10+ hogs in the last year or so.

    It's funny the SKS was supposed to be my tacti-cool hogging machine but it ended up sitting in the safe in a stock configuration while my "classic" how normal people used put food on the table, gun ended up putting a bunch of food on the table here in the house.

    Thanks
    ID
     
  17. Powerglide

    Powerglide Member

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    I kinda like the fact that the less original ones there are, the more mine go up.Get after it boys!
     
  18. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    I see that some of you get the point of the post.
    The Purist should keep himself as an open book so that others may learn. And the guy that likes to tinker with guns should also do a little homework before altering something that is very collectable.
    Collecting and shooting of firearms is a hobby for most of us, and hobbies should be fun.
    Now I do like a well done sporter and have worked on a few myself. I have never been much for the Bubba sporter, you know the one with the chopped stock and military steps still on the barrel. But then there is grandad's old Bubba sporter that alot of guys have that they would never sell.

    People have asked me what type of collection I have and I answer it by saying, " One with little focus." I collect all types of firearms and have somewhere over 300.
    I love the old warhorses but have some very nice ones too. I have guns that cover several countries and many wars. I also have many 22 rifles, old and new.
    I have a few guns for work and many more for play.
     
  19. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    I'm in agreement.

    I'm also something of a purist in that I cringe when I see a nice Remington Rand or Union Switch that's been "customized." But...I also remember a time when GI 1911 and 1911A1 pistols were stacked on gun show vendors' tables like cordwood, and they could barely give'em away...and the people that did buy'em had'em nickel plated and the like. A good many 1903 Springfields went the same route. That was the way of the world back then.

    Now, I'll advise the prospective customizer that the value will be ruined, and not much more. The plain, simple truth is that...unless the arm in question wasn't issued or was "liberated" early on...before it saw much use ...the completely original US service pistol is going to be a rare find, because it's a safe bet that something has been changed, if only a spring or a pin.

    Beyond that...It's your money and your gun. Do with it what you will.
     
  20. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

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    Right on Gunny!

    Two words used in the mil-surp collectors world that I really don't like, "original" and "bring back"

    In the past I have changed parts to have a "correct" mil-surp. Now days I keep as I find them, most have gone through a refurb and have miss-matched parts as issued. I'll keep them that way.

    Good post Gunny.
     
  21. The Sarge

    The Sarge Member

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    If a fella wishes to paint his mint condition M1/Mosin/Mauser bright pink and hang lights and scopes off of it.....I could care less. His/her rifle.
    And I will kill myself if I ever fall to the bottom of the barrel and start posting criticisms for what a guy does to his rifle.
     
  22. 303tom

    303tom member

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    There is no way in hell I would cut up something like this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  23. 303tom

    303tom member

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    Then you come across this, what do you do ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  24. T.R.

    T.R. Member

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    When I restored our '65 Plymouth Barracuda, parts came from many sources but end result was a beauty!

    - glove box came out of a Dodge Dart
    - rear view mirror came out of a Chrysler Imperial
    - battery pan came out of a Plymouth Duster
    - odometer came out of a Plymouth Savoy
    - water pump inlet came out of a Plymouth Fury
    - seat belts came out of a Chrysler Newport

    I have zero guilt for my scrounging junk yard parts. I feel the same about firearms.

    TR
     
  25. The Sarge

    The Sarge Member

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    Same thing I do when I see a guy holding hands with an ugly woman. Absolutely nothing.
     
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