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Animals that are the cause of emotional strife when hunted.

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by H&Hhunter, May 10, 2011.

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  1. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    HGUNHNTR,

    Interesting,

    Hunting has been banned in Kenya since 1978 therefore there is no "trophy hunting" business there. And Uganda just reopened to hunting two years ago and has a very small nearly insignificant hunting industry. Considering the locations mentioned I'm thinking your sources are feeding you flawed and anecdotal information.

    Pure and simple and the facts bear out that countries which allow safari hunting have large healthy populations of game. Those that banned it do not. Kenya being the prime example.

    Are there going to be some dirty back alley deals cut in any business that involves cash and profit? Especially in a cash strapped third or fourth world African republic? Of course there will, that's how business works in those places. With that in mind all one has to do is take a quick look at Kenya and the wildlife population crash after the hunting ban to see what happens to wildlife in Africa if it isn't paying it's own way.

    There is plenty of information out there on the subject written by biologist, conservationist the UN and NGO's (one who are not funded by animal rights organizations) if you are interested in how the Safari industry has kept game populations healthy and profitable. Please don't take my word for it. Start by looking up the White Rhino population recovery.

    Just a quick example lets take Botswana. They have over 100,000 elephant and a carrying capacity of less than that. They allow approximately 300 trophy elephant licenses per year. Those licenses along with other species are the primary, almost in fact sole source of revenue for the entire game department and many villages depend entirely on the jobs and communal revenue that is derived from the hunting industry.

    Take the hunting away and within a short period those elephant are now worthless, in fact a liability to the locals, and guess what happens next? If the elephant are eating your crops smashing your lapas and chasing your women out of the fields and you no longer have a job because you used to be a tracker or a skinner or a driver or a cook or a maintenance guy or a game scout or any other myriad of functions for a safari camp. All of a sudden the only way you can feed and cloth your family and go get drunk on Friday night is by poaching those elephant and selling their teeth to the Chinese gangs that buy ivory. Now the game department has no funds to fight the rampant poaching and has to beg for money that is quickly drained on an ineffectual anti poaching effort that will fail and the world elephant population will once again crash to almost unsustainable levels. And people like your friends can scream "LOOK I TOLD YOU SO it's those DAMN HUNTERS KILLING ALL THE ELEPHANTS." Just like they did during the 80's after the hunting ban went into effect and the elephant was almost wiped out by commercial scale poaching.

    With all due respect to your friends in Kenya and Uganda I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. Especially if you live in Kenya and have a real life example of this exact scenario staring you right in the face. Unless of course you live in a mega city like Nairobi or some such and you have about as much understanding of wildlife conservation as your average New Yorker. Of course saying you are from "Africa" holds way to much water with most people who have never been there. Most people hear Africa and think National Geographic when in reality the majority of "Africans" now days are urbanized and clueless just like most Americans.

    I also have a friend in Kenya named Dr. Dave Hopcraft (PHD in zoology) who owns and operates a 100,000 + acre ranch in the N'Gong district he is a fifth generation white Kenyan. He's got a bit different take on the hunting ban and the safari industry than your friends do. He and his fellow land owners/managers have been petitioning the government to lift the hunting ban at least on private lands for decades. The ministers in government have been given irrefutable proof and about the damage the hunting ban has caused. However every time the referendum comes up for vote the international animal rights organizations start handing out a new batch of fancy cars, houses and cash to the right members of government. Magically the hunting ban which is always soundly defeated by the popular vote is upheld by the higher members of parliament who have veto power and have received the biggest and juiciest bribes by the various well funded animal rights organizations.

    It would be interesting to me to hear how your friends address this very well documented and repeated cycle that is the rampant governmental corruption that has kept hunting ban in Kenya alive. I would especially like to hear how they justify screaming corruption in the hunting industry when they live in a country that doesn't allow it.
     
  2. HGUNHNTR

    HGUNHNTR Member

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    You are correct, but are you saying that the Kenyan government enforces this laws in tribal areas of Kenya? I think not, especially if there is profit to be made and they are part of it.

    Very small and insignificant maybe in GDP, but it is a very significant percentage.
    It appears we just operate under a different set of priorities.
     
  3. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    Horse meat,

    Having spent a lot of time in Europe especially France I've eaten horse meat a time or two. It's meat plain and simple I find it to be pretty close to lean beef. Zebra is not a very good meat in my opinion as the fat is bright yellow and pungent smelling. Locals tend to think of it as a delicacy just like they can't get enough giraffe bull. Which I thing smells like bad kitty litter. Then again I can't stand mutton of lamb either because of the smell and South Africans think that's the best meat ever.

    If any of you guys have taken any animal science/ ag courses you'd remember I'm sure that the horse market was 80% meat and protein feed production in this country until about 5 years ago when the ban on horse slaughter and the exportation of horses for slaughter was pushed through by the animal rights lobby.

    There is now of course a HUGE surplus of unwanted horses in USA. You can't hardly give a horse away in most pats of the country. I've got four pasture maggots draining my bank account as we speak. My girls think I love our horse too..;)
     
  4. Frogomatik

    Frogomatik Member

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    so true, just about 2 years ago, my buddy bought 2 very good horses for $5 at auction. It wasn't so long ago those two would've set you back a couple grand.
     
  5. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    HGUNHNTR,

    Lets define the parameters of the hunting ban in Kenya. You can still hunt animals on your own property or on tribal property if you are a tribal member for food and skins etc. But you can not charge to guide hunters on said property you can not import firearms into kenya for the purpose of hunting, you can not purchase a hunting license as a foreigner you can not hunt as a foreigner and you can not export any trophies or animal parts from Kenya unless they are a sanctioned part of the tourist industry.

    It is illegal to sell animals for the purpose of hunting to foreigners and it is a felony to be caught hunting in Kenya unless you are a licensed resident and hunting on private or tribal land with permission of the land manager.

    So how exactly are the locals making money off of hunting in the "tribal" areas? Any foreigner would be NUTS to try and hunt (remember it's a felony) in Kenya. Have you ever seen what an African jail looks like? Your soft white European buttocks won't last long in that place.:uhoh:
     
  6. Mudinyeri

    Mudinyeri Member

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    Anyone can link almost anything from the intard-web. Show me scholarly journals with published studies that establish a causal relationship between oily species of fish and lower cholesterol or red meat and higher cholesterol.

    The simple answer is ... you can't. There are simply too many other environmental factors, including inherited traits in humans, to control for.
     
  7. HGUNHNTR

    HGUNHNTR Member

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    My buttocks are neither soft, white, nor
    European..........well maybe soft ;)
    Have you heard of usurping the law?
     
  8. MtnCreek

    MtnCreek Member

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    I haven't been on THR for very long, but I'll assume the above is a first (at least I hope it is).
     
  9. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Robert Ruark agreed. He said it was proper to cry after shooting one's first elephant. But I suspect you mean something else.

    Around here, hunting rabbits and Bambi will get you dirty looks from some people. Globally, there's whales and polar bear.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2011
  10. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    ethanol is to blame.

    People can't afford to feed a horse due to the higher cost of feed. Land is being snatched up for ethanol production. even cattle feed is getting pricey and therefore so is beef. There's been a worldwide grain shortage for awhile now. partly due to US ethanol production and partly due to unusual weather around the world.

    the horse slaughter regs are just the icing on the cake.

    obviously these new regs ruin the "salvage value" of a pet horse. I'm not sure what they do to wild horses. Probably cause them to die of starvation if there's no predators introduced to hunt them.
     
  11. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Just two minutes from sanity.
    I have a degree in biology and don't get sentimental over animals. Anthropomorphism drives me nuts. OTOH, I don't shoot animals that I don't intend to eat or that are not making pests of themselves TO ME. On the whole, I prefer people to be honest. If you enjoy going out and shooting prairie dogs, just say you enjoy shooting prairie dogs. Don't try to spin it as you are doing it for some farmer or rancher's benefit unless you are also out there dutifully helping him with sundry other chores. Funny how many guys only want to help out Squire Brown when it involves shooting something. Likewise, if you want to legally shoot a giraffe, elephant, lion, what have you, just shoot it and admit that you enjoyed shooting it. Tortured explanations of how you really did for the benefit of the veldt ecosystem ring false to the ear. They're only animals, either it is okay to kill them or it isn't. If it is, then you don't need the spin.
     
  12. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course I have but how are these supposed black market "trophy" hunters getting their trophies home? And of course if this is going on it's a tiny little illegal black market segment and has no bearing on the original subject which was the supposed rampant corruption in the legal "trophy" hunting business.
     
  13. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    I thought there was a virtual war going on in africa regarding ivory poachers?

    also, the chinese and other similar races seem to have a fetish for rare animal parts...tiger penises and bear gall bladders.
     
  14. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    Depends, some areas the poaching is once again reaching epic proportions some areas not so much. Right now the major issue is rhino horn. Rhinos are getting swatted at an unsustainable rate at the moment.
     
  15. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Aw, well, I'm just fed up with all this killing. I'm disgusted by the screams of anguish from the tearing off of the little rootlets from onions, radishes and carrots. Worse than mere ungruntling.

    And for some reason all this got me to thinking of Arlo Guthrie and "Alice's Restaurant" and his session with the recruiting sergeant, "Kill...I wanna kill..." which segues into the thought that for some, the sweet aroma of blood enhances concupiscence.

    You guys do terrible things to my already-twisted sense of humor...
     
  16. 16shells

    16shells Member

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    Seems to me the animals causing the most "emotional strife" are:
    1. Primates
    2. Pets
    3. Any animal that has been portrayed as a main character in a popular animated movie (bambi, dumbo,...).
     
  17. ThePunisher'sArmory

    ThePunisher'sArmory Member

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    You must not have any pets???? I guarantee my dog would die for me or my wife if she had too. I would even venture to say that she would get help if I or my wife was hurt. No soul huh? Thats the second time today I've heard that out of some bible thumpers mouth. No offence though I read the good book too...........Just not narrow minded.

    Now to answer the question. I feel bad when hunting almost anything but do it for food and the joy of the hunt. Even when protecting the garden from some bothersome squirrels and rabbits. Those mainly make me feel bad cause I will not eat them. But if I didn't dispatch them I would have NO produce!!!
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2011
  18. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Add diseased, starving feral (aka "wild") horses t your list. The remnants are roaming northern NV, typically very sickly and diseased, yet folks would rather have the gov't spend upteen thousands to use helicopters to round them up (and stress them even more), so the can be sold to some altruistic person to spend thousands in vet bills only to have to put it down a few months later. Otherwise, they get sold to a butcher for sale to the French......
     
  19. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator Staff Member

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    oneounceload

    The federal wild horse protection act put an end to that over 30 years ago. It is illegal to slaughter wild caught horses. It is also illegal to hunt or shoot them.
     
  20. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Not totally..............;) things were done that were not always "legal" but were done anyway. Once sold to an individual, there was no real follow up, so things were done that shouldn't have been. They busted two soldiers for shooting them near Reno a few years ago - they got prison sentences, but the the Feds using helicopters to round them up were acting legally
     
  21. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    16shells, have you any idea how few people know that there is a fish named a dolphin? After "Flipper", to prevent confusion and mayhem, restaurants began serving "mahi-mahi", the Hawaiian word for dolphin.

    (Maybe it's just "mahi" in the islands. Then again, maybe they liked it so much that they named it twice. Sorta like Walla Walla, WA.)
     
  22. inclinebench

    inclinebench Member

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    I get a kick out of how current food trends have changed the opinions of some folks. I have some cousins who used to give me no end of <removed> for hunting. Now they have all moved to the northeast where the "local food" movement has taken hold (it has been a standard around here since before the white folks arrived). Now these cousins who used to poo-poo me for killing deer and and ducks to eat, are asking me for meat.

    I may be of a more libratarian bend than most, but as long as your not causing me or mine any trouble, I am not going to care what you choose to hunt or eat. I also ask that other people keep their opinions about how I feed my family to themselves. I personally only hunt what I am going to eat, but fact is, I dont hardly have time to hunt that, so popping pests is off my radar right now. When I retire and have more time, I do think I might shoot some coyotes as they are a nuisance around here. But for now, Donald and Bambi are my concern.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2011
  23. Mudinyeri

    Mudinyeri Member

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    We "Bible Thumpers" don't take offense at your belief that pets have souls. You're welcome to believe whatever you want to.

    I'm pretty sure name-calling is against the High Road's principles though. Maybe back off of that just a tad. ;)
     
  24. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer member

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    There are intelligent animals and stupid animals. Look into a deers eyes and there's not much there. Look into a canines eyes, and there's more going on. The last canine I shot was a fox nearly fifteen years ago. Went for a head shot on a moving animal and caught it across the withers, paralyzing it. It looked at me like a dog when I approached - fear, curiosity, pain. I could only see a dog lying there.

    So, I never shot another fox. I've also passed on wolves and "brush wolves" (as coyotes are often called in Alaska) on a number of occasions.

    But, that's me. I don't judge others who shoot wild canines and I don't question the motives or the biological need to shoot canines. Maybe it's the libertarian in me, but I have no desire to tell others they should behave like me. And therein lies the problem - too many people think their "feelings" should be honored by others.

    I don't feel much when I shoot a deer, caribou, rabbit or game bird. Those animals eat and crap and procreate, and not much else. They're cattle. There's not much behind those eyes.
     
  25. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    I could say that for a bunch of humans I've met as well...
     
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