Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Bones11b, Aug 10, 2007.
Someone please tell me when we're going to get back to hanging people on the courthouse lawn?
That is the sadest thing I have seen in a while. I know my thoughts are with his family and I agree with Noxx. Maybe when we start really doing something instead of a slap on the wrist and a short jail term people would think twice before being so stupid. I hope these guys are caught and that the guilt eats at them for the rest of their sorry lives.
If there's one surefire way to make sure you get hunted down by angry police, this is it. I hope the perps leave wherever they're found in body bags.
I always see these sentiments with the pro gun groups. I think it starts as a gun defense through the "guns are not the problem, releasing criminals over and over to prey on people is". It sounds good, but reality is a different story.
In CA we have some of the strictest three strike laws in the nation. Someone can be put away for life pretty easily and the subsequent strikes are often non violent. The second strike mandates double sentencing. The original is likely to have a long sentence on its own as most violent crimes dish out massive sentences now. So even getting to a third strike someone would have spent much of thier life in prison unless they get 2 or 3 at once which is also done. Many get thier second and third while in prison by carrying offensive or defensive weapons in that violent environment or being involved in altercations they or someone else initiates.
We have the largest prison population in the nation, and our country has the largest per capita prison population, as well as largest prison population period in the world. You are more likely to rot in jail in the USA than you are anywhere else in the world for criminal offenses. Just watch most modern sentencing proceedings if you think otherwise (they are open to the public). Decades of time stack up rapidly.
One thing we do see as a result is criminals going psyco and getting into shootouts rather than being caught for minor offenses because they can be facing a second or third strike. So officers end up shot because the guy is facing the same amount of time getting caught with some drugs as if he goes to prison for murder. Facing that scenario they have little to lose for acting irrational and gunning down anyone that gets in thier way or might bust them for a minor offense.
The truth is a little more grim. Criminals exist, will always exist. You can hang them, torture them, lock them up forever, and they will still exist. To me that is reason enough that everyone should be capable and ready to defend themselves.
It might feel good to believe "we just need to be tougher on crime" as it offers a simple solution to a complex problem. It however is a dated response and most adults are given long sentences in many states that still have high crime.
I hope they catch this guy and my sympathies go out to the officer's family.
Oh wait, it's only when their own is killed...
Maybe - just maybe - if they persued 'ordinary criminals' with such fervor there'd be less crime to worry about...
While I'm sure cries of "cop bashing" will be incoming any moment, I doubt that helicopters would be deployed for searches if any regular person had been murdered like this. But this thread may not the time or place for such a discussion.
If longer prison terms are not the answer, then what is? More police? More laws? I don't have the answers. I suggest looking across our country for the place, be it a city, county, or whatever, with the lowest rate of violent crime, and taking whatever they're doing and copy it. Across our land, we surely have every different approach being used somewhere. (That Sheriff in Arizona ,Joe Arpico(sp), has a pretty good record). Are our politicians too vain and/or conceited to use some help? It is real easy to get flustered when dealing with politicans trying to ease social problems. I don't really believe we can help secure society until we secure ourselves. There is no answer to appease everyone.:banghead:
You can create a police state filled with so many laws that any action is an offense and still have criminals, and live in a place with no freedom at the same time.
The real issue is culture. Most criminals and violence today stems from the hip hop thug glamorizing culture. However with the freedom of speech what people want to listen to and be influenced by and how they express themselves is thier decision. So there is not many pro active solutions, and we must deal with it reactively when a crime is commited. Otherwise we lose what makes us America.
Being discriminatory against people that are a part of that culture will quickly get you in trouble with the ACLU as well the legal system in many states. Since these cultures are more prevelent in certain ethnicities, discriminating against those a part of said culture would indirectly discriminate against those ethnicities and be illegal.
I however like the culture because it makes people red flag themselves as most likely to cause problems. This is why I am against dress codes and similar practices. I want people to walk like a duck, act like a duck, and quack like a duck, if they are a duck. Not force them to hide the fact they are a duck so it is harder to figure out.
Another way to look at it; more laws = more criminals
If we only punished violent crime, and kept the violent criminals behind bars, I'd bet our national prison population would be much smaller. As it is now, even violent offenders get turned out to make way for dope smokers and the like.
I've not heard of the original incident that they're talking about, but then again, I'm not glued to the police blotter, either. I do know that me and mine don't go about unarmed.
You are probably right. It all comes down to money. There is just not enough money to scramble the air support and bring out all available assets for every single murder search.
Now, I am not an LEO, but I completely understand and agree with the reasoning for going after cop killers with so much fervor. Cops are put in situations where their reputation and "untouchability" are what keep them safe. If, when one of them is harmed, there is not a show of overwhelming force that will just lead to other criminals losing their fear of what might happen. This show of force is as much to protect other cops in future encounters as it is for revenge or justice, which, us being humans, is of course still there. The world is not, nor will it be perfect in its present form.
Another nonsense cop bashing post.
Here in Metro Atlanta you better believe the same effort goes out no matter what. The thing you forget is, 99% of the time, when an officer is killed or shot, it's usually AFTER citizens have already been shot or killed, and the police were there to respond to it. You know, to do what most don't want to do.
They must retaliate in force to make a statement,and I hope the perps are caught and executed on site.
Yes the 3 strikes law does have some problems when a person with 2 very legitimate strikes has a very minor infraction trigger the 3 strike rule.
However, there are many other solutions, like not worrying about 3 strikes, but have the basic jail time assigned to each infraction increased.
Also, you state that many people get their 2nd or 3rd strike from carrying defensively when in prison or from prison altercations that are not their fault. Can you back that up?
Yes I have worked with prisoners and usualy whenever they are involved in an altercation warranting charges all are equaly charged. Whether an individual was the attacker or not, they are all involved in a gang culture for survival in there and obviously have rap sheets. When someone or a group of individuals pull weapons on others who have weapons themselves, the mere fact that they had weapons at all warrants a strike, using those weapons warrants a second one. So if they already had one before prison, they will have 3 after that incident.
If you have not worked in the heavy gang environment of the prisons then you cannot understand it. There is no way to be safe and not be involved in the politics present. Anyone not involved is a target with no backup to act as a deterent. The deterent for other predators from preying on eachother is that even if who they prey on cannot harm them, reprisals will happen. Attacking or preying on someone means a hit is often put out on someone, often the predator. That is what keeps them from acting on the desire to prey on eachother most of the time.
If someone is preyed on, and the group that preyed on individual belongs to does not retaliate, that deterent is gone and they are viewed as "bitches". They will become the new favored victims when someone wants property, drugs, or sex. They will in general also have little say in how things go.
In prison getting hit by a victim is not a deterent. Getting "shanked" in retaliation by others of his group at a later date when they don't see it coming is. That is why small framed mexicans are in charge even with large framed blacks prevelent. The mexicans are quick to stab if the blacks victimize one of them. The same goes for the white minority. These people fight for fun, so punches are not a deterent. Something more serious than punches, even in self defense, is a crime in prison, which warrants a strike under the three strikes law. If an entire group is attacked by another group with improvised stabbing intruments
and the attacked group is unarmed they will be killed. So they usualy will have some available. When its 1 on 1, guards get involved, when its several on several they wait for backup and keep a distance. The inmates are on thier own for several minutes at that point.
(these situations will also show you just how effective tear gas and pepper sprays are against armed violent people) After such situations prisoners know who is willing to fight, who "put work in" and who is a "bitch" that tried to not be involved. The last catagory will become the new victims. Who makes it back to the street and who stays in prison is often a matter of luck.
Many of them go in for some years and never leave. Others go in for a single violent episode in which they are charged with several crimes and get 2-3 strikes at once. For example a robbery may be charged with, robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, possession of a firearm in the comission of a crime, felony resisting arrest, (and about 5-10 others to give prosecutors some leverage in plea bargaining) etc All from one robbery and fleeing the scene. This is not to excuse thier behavior, simply to illustrate how one crime is often multiple strikes.
Guess not, too bad for him, may the next one meet the same fate.
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